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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 12:26 pm
fox, Do you understand anything about "conflict of interest?"
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 12:27 pm
I don't know if this guy is telling it exactly as it is. I think it more likely than not, since for all we know this is an innocent citizen. Nobody has ever accused this man of a crime, much less convicted him of one. So I see no reason to mistrust him. Condoleeza Rice has admitted on her trip to Europe that he had been abducted. She just refuses to confirm that anything went wrong.

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I don't see the relevance of the conditions in Guantanamo bay. El-Masri was never in Guantanamo Bay. He was abducted from Macedonia to Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 12:28 pm
No matter how many times this administration claims "we do not torture prisoners," how many in this world do you think really believes that?
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 12:44 pm
It is this concluding comment in the translation:

Quote:
Masri: Yes. I dream of interrogations. I feel queasy in the basement. What's really bad are TV images from Guantanamo, Abu Gharib, barbed wire, military bases. Then I'm overwhelmed by tears, the wounds break up, and I think of the prisoners, what they are going through.


This would suggest, to me anyway, that there is more of an agenda here than his own experience. I could be wrong. It's just an opinion.
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 12:59 pm
Foxfyre -- hypothetically, if you were abducted, beaten up, flown to Afghanistan, and interrogated for half a year; and if you knew there were other people in the same situation as you: How exactly would your feelings be different after your return?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 01:04 pm
You forgot, Thomas, that before being abducted, beaten up, flown to Afghanistan, and interrogated for half a year - before that you/she/he got kidnapped.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 02:14 pm
Isn't abducted and kidnapped the same thing?

I don't know how I would feel Thomas. But it would depend a great deal on how much I remembered and reported accurately, how much I exaggerated, and how much I made up too, don't you think? You have one prominent war hero from Texas who was in the Hanoi Hilton who takes strong exception to some of the things left wing wackos define as torture these days. And you have another who makes political points denouncing torture with no evidence whatsoever that this is a matter of our government's policy or is condoned in any way.

I admit to being somewhat jaded and cautiously skeptical whenever stuff like this is presented as 'fact', most especially when it is used to make political points by one side or the other.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:01 pm
"Cautiously skeptical" when this administration didn't want congress to hamstring their mistreatment of prisoners. Talk about blind faith.
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:03 pm
InfraBlue wrote:
ican wrote:
The real debate is over what is promptly enough to continue to make measureable progress.

The real debate also involves the definition of "measurable progress."

I agree. I think step by step is measureable progress. What do you think?

The Bush administration's solution is the seven-step course they specified in 2003. It is the course they have stayed and are staying and have repeatedly declared they will stay. Their solution is to establish a democracy in Iraq secured by the Iraqis themselves. They have completed four of the seven steps in their solution:
(1) Select an initial Iraq government to hold a first election.
(2) Establish and begin training an Iraq self-defense military.
(3) Hold a democratic election of an interim government whose primary function is to write a proposed constitution for a new Iraq democratic government.
(4) Submit that proposed constitution to Iraq voters for approval or disapproval.

(5) After approval by Iraq voters of an Iraq democratic government constitution, hold under that constitution a first election of the members of that government.
(6) Help train, as specified by the new Iraq government, an Iraq military to secure that Iraq government.
(7) Remove our military from Iraq in phased withdrawals as specified by the new Iraq government.

So far, so good!

Step (5) is planned for December 15, 2005 with the vote count completed by January 1, 2006.

Is their progress toward their solution fast enough? NO! I prefer faster! But then, I almost always prefer faster than I ever get.

Is their progress toward their solution cheap enough? NO! I prefer cheaper! But then, I almost always prefer cheaper than I ever have to pay.

Does their progress toward their solution cost few enough lives? NO! I prefer a cost of fewer lives! But then, I always a cost of fewer lives. I prefer a cost of zero lives.

Have they committed many blunders along the way? YES! Typical for government -- especially large government!

Are they making measurable progress toward their solution? YES! They are progressing step by step despite their blunders.

By the way, I'm scheduled to be perfect by January 1, 2006. Alas, I am way way ... way behind schedule! Smile

How're you doin' ? :wink:
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:04 pm
Please elaborate on how it is a good policy to telegraph how we treat prisoners, C.I. Assume you have some hardcore terrorists coming into GITMO and you have good reason to believe that you can save several lives if you know what they know. What do you tell them about how they will be treated? Be specific please.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:22 pm
fox, It's been shown repeatedly that torture does not work. They will say what the captors want to hear. The most important issue is that torture is not acceptable to most Americans; that's the reason why many still say it was a good idea to get rid of Saddam - and his tortures.

The pictures of our troops torturing Iraqis/insurgents shown all over the world has been detrimental to our image. It's been tarnished forever for some folks.
0 Replies
 
Arella Mae
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:28 pm
Unfortunately, what tarnishes anything is when the mass is credited for an individual's act. For example, if a picture is shown of an American soldier torturing someone, all American soldiers are then thought to be torturers and condoners of it?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:35 pm
Poles to probe CIA prisons claim
Poland has announced a formal inquiry into claims that the US CIA operated secret prisons or interrogation centres on its territory.
Announcing the move, Prime Minister Kazimiercz Marcinkiewicz said the issue had to be resolved.

The Polish government has always denied the existence of such facilities.

The BBC's Adam Easton in Warsaw says that over the last few days, the Polish government has come under increasing pressure to be seen to act.

Several newspapers have run successive front-page stories about the issue, with one quoting a spokesman for the US-based group Human Rights Watch saying that Poland had been the main base for interrogating terrorist suspects.

Another said the secret prisons were only closed down after the story first became public last month.

Mr Marcinkiewicz said the detailed investigation would look at all possible locations to determine if there was any evidence to support the allegations.

"This matter must finally be closed, because it could prove dangerous for Poland," he said.

Earlier this week, the prime minister said the country would open its doors to a separate investigation led by the Council of Europe.

Allegations 'ludicrous'

Meanwhile, a senior US official has defended the country's treatment of terror suspects and the transfer of prisoners to third countries for interrogation.

State department senior legal adviser John Bellinger told the BBC that Washington sought reassurance in those countries that prisoners would not be tortured.


We as a state department have got problems with the human rights records of some countries... but this does not mean per se that you may not transfer a person to those countries
John Bellinger
US state dept legal adviser

He said allegations that hundreds of suspects were sent around the globe to be tortured were "ludicrous".

Mr Bellinger said the US did practice rendition, by which some terror suspects were sent to a third country to be questioned.

But he added that even transferring a prisoner to a country which had been criticised over its human rights record was not a violation of international law.

"We as a state department have got problems with the human rights records of some countries... but this does not mean per se that you may not transfer a person to those countries," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

Mr Bellinger insisted that if there were such questions, the US would seek reassurances that a prisoner would not be subjected to torture.

But he said some practises had been wildly exaggerated.

"Some of the allegations more broadly about all sorts of things are ludicrous, [like one] about hundreds of flights from European cities taking people to be tortured," he said.

He repeated that Washington did not condone or practice torture, but would not comment on whether some prisoners had been subjected to interrogation techniques such as waterboarding - when a suspect is made to feel that they are drowning - to extract information.

The lawyer said he could not comment on speculation about so-called enhanced interrogation techniques or the existence of secret prisons.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/4517134.stm

Published: 2005/12/10 20:10:25 GMT
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:36 pm
Would Jesus torture?

Would Jesus say, as did John Yoo and others in the Justice Department, that its quite ok to do anything to folks so long as major organ failure isn't achieved?

Would Jesus say that torture is bad on the soil of the home country but fine on other soil?
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:38 pm
That is certainly how much of the rest of the world may well see things. The demagogues and rabble-rousers will exploit such images. I believe that in the "industrialized world" there will less of that perception, although still a significant number of people who believe so (especially among the young, who need to believer there is great evil to combat in the world, for which the United States handily serves as a symbol). In the United States itself, i would venture to say that such a view only obtains among those whose view of the administration and the war verges on hysteria or actually is hysterical.

I despise the administration, the PNAC and their identical goals. I consider the war to have been unjustified, and bordering on the criminal. I consider that we owe it to the Iraqis to make things right on the "you broke it you fix it" principle. I submit that the current administration and in particular Rummy continue to show that they are not competent to acheive such a goal. And, finally, i consider that the troops, as good as any other set of Americans, will sink into license and depravity if they are not well lead. The potential leadership of our professional military is great, but it can be polluted by the rogue attitudes of this administration.

The Shrub and his Forty Thieves of Baghdad have made this bed in which we lie, and done a damned poor job of it.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:42 pm
December 11, 2005
Politics, Iraqi Style: Slick TV Ads, Text Messaging and Gunfire
By ROBERT F. WORTH
and EDWARD WONG
BAGHDAD, Iraq, Dec. 10 - After putting up 100,000 posters across Iraq to promote his political party, Hamid Kifai discovered this week that they had all been torn down, even the ones on the front of his own campaign headquarters in the south.

"They have made it impossible for us to compete," said Mr. Kifai, a stocky, talkative Shiite candidate who spent his entire $50,000 war chest on the posters and has nothing left. "This is not democracy."

It is democracy, but in a distinctly Iraqi style. This country is in the final days of a campaign that is at once more ruthless and more sophisticated than anything yet seen here. Candidates have been assassinated, even in an atmosphere of polished and expensive campaigns.

Slick television spots run throughout the day, showing candidates who soberly promise to defeat terrorism and revive the economy. Cellphone users routinely get unexpected text messages advertising one candidate or another. Thousands of posters decorate the capital's gray blast walls, including one that shows a split face - half Saddam Hussein, half Ayad Allawi - in a blunt effort to smear Mr. Allawi, the former prime minister, and his secular coalition.

"Who does this man remind you of?" the poster asks.

In a sense, it is the first full-scale political contest here since the fall of Mr. Hussein. The Sunni Arabs, who largely boycotted January's election, are now campaigning fiercely, and voter turnout is expected to be considerably higher as a result. All told, 226 political groups will compete in the elections, representing more than 7,000 candidates.

The winners will form Iraq's first full-term government since the war began, and face the task of unifying an increasingly fractious and violent nation. Any American plan to reduce troop levels will depend on the success of that effort.

So far, the campaign has been as turbulent as any endeavor in Iraq. In the past two weeks alone, 11 people associated with Mr. Allawi's group have been killed, including one of its leading candidates in southern Iraq. On Tuesday, gunmen stormed five northern offices belonging to the Kurdistan Islamic Union, killing two party members and wounding 10. It is often hard to distinguish political killings from the terrorism that has become a part of daily life here, but in both cases, the parties have accused rivals of carrying out the attacks.

"I think these negative tactics will backfire," said Azzam Alwash, an ebullient 47-year-old civil engineer who is co-director of the campaign for Mr. Allawi's coalition. Like almost all of his counterparts in these elections, he has no prior experience in the field, though he oversees 80 campaign workers with a budget of $2.5 million. He toils in a "war room" in Mr. Allawi's Baghdad headquarters, where staff members work 18-hour days and coordinate satellite offices in all of Iraq's provinces.

"Our posters got pulled down too, so we decided the best way was with TV, radios and newspapers," Mr. Alwash said. Like many other groups, Mr. Allawi's has its own newspaper and enough money to pay for plenty of television and radio time. About 6 of the nearly 20 Iraqi television stations - and about half of the 200 Iraqi newspapers - are owned by parties. Rates for political spots on the larger Baghdad stations run as high as $3,000 per minute.

At his own desk, Mr. Alwash clicked on an Internet link and a song began to play: a campaign tune recorded last month by Elham al-Madfai, one of Iraq's best-known singers. The words, written in 1941, are about a doctor who can solve all the patient's problems. Every time the word doctor comes up in the song, the accompanying video shows a smiling Mr. Allawi.

"We're playing it all over our radio stations," Mr. Alwash said.

Like Mr. Kifai, Mr. Alwash says he believes the culprit in the poster-tearing - and other incidents involving underhanded tactics - is the United Iraqi Alliance, a religious Shiite group whose main parties now control the government. "We have videos and photographs of police defacing our posters and putting up posters for 555," Mr. Alwash said, referring to the Shiite alliance by its ballot number.

Redha Jowad Taki, a spokesman for the Shiite coalition, said it condemned the removal of posters. Some of its own had also been torn down, he said, and four of its campaign volunteers had been killed while putting up posters.

The campaign is being conducted with few real rules. Technically, the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq is in charge, but it has little money to investigate the more than 80 violations that have been reported in the last month, said Safwat Rashid Sidqi, a commissioner. Last year, the commission fined the Shiite alliance about $1,500 for campaigning after the 48-hour cutoff point before the vote, a pittance for a party with deep pockets.

Money has become a campaign issue too, though there are no limits on spending or contributions, and no public funding. Critics of Mr. Allawi, a White House favorite, accuse him of taking American government money, while enemies of the Shiite alliance say that group gets much of its financing from Iran. Both groups deny the charges, though the sources of their large war chests remain mysterious.

One of the more promising aspects of the election is the participation by Sunni Arabs, who largely boycotted the vote to elect the 275-member National Assembly last January. Many are risking their lives by campaigning in areas where the Sunni-led insurgency is at its worst.

Hatem Mukhlis, the leader of the Assembly of Patriots, a secular Sunni party, has been traveling three or four times a week from Baghdad to Salahuddin Province, an insurgent stronghold whose capital is Tikrit, Mr. Hussein's hometown.

"My father upgraded Tikrit with money and schools," said Mr. Mukhlis, a doctor who lived in the United States for 20 years and met with President Bush at the White House before the war. "They remember my father for the services he provided the people."

Mr. Mukhlis said he hoped the people of Salahuddin would view him in the same light as his father, a respected military officer. He said he has opened up a printing press in Tikrit, and started two mobile health clinics that roam the province in white vans.

Like many other candidates, he has also set up a Web site, www.almalaf.net, to get out his message. On Friday, the home page showed a photo of Ibrahim al-Jaafari, the Shiite prime minister, next to the bruised back of a male detainee, alluding to the Sunni Arabs' fears that government-sponsored militias are abducting, torturing and killing Sunnis.

The headline on the site talked about "secret documents" linking Mr. Jaafari to incidents of torture.

The Web site has other draws. At the bottom of the home page, Mr. Mukhlis has posted photos of Miss Egypt and Miss Puerto Rico in bikinis.

Several American groups are teaching Iraqi politicians the basics of campaigning and helping them polish their messages. Chief among them are the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute, both democracy-promotion groups with financing from the American government and ties to the two major American parties. They run workshops, help coordinate media campaigns and give lessons in organizing volunteers and conducting polls.

Still, these campaigns could never be mistaken for American ones. The sheer number of political groups and competing messages make it hard for Iraqis to distinguish one party from another. There are few debates or substantive discussions of the issues in this campaign, which is still mostly rooted in personalities and appeals to ethnic or sectarian loyalties.

Because of the risk of drawing attacks by insurgents or rivals, political rallies and barnstorming speeches are virtually unheard of. Mosques are about the only accessible public spaces here, posing an obstacle for the more secular parties. Some secular candidates, including Mr. Allawi, have accused the Shiite alliance of using religious imagery in their posters to suggest that voting for their own groups is a religious duty.

Especially in southern Iraq, the parched Shiite heartland, the power of the religious hierarchy is often impossible to separate from politics.

One local group, the Islamic Coalition, includes six parties that are loyal to ayatollahs from the Shiite holy city of Karbala. In the past two weeks, the coalition's posters have popped up everywhere there. Some carry images of the group's two main spiritual leaders, Ayatollah Sadiq Shirazi, who lives in the Iranian holy city of Qum, and the Ayatollah Hadi Muderassi, of Karbala.

Clerics who follow these ayatollahs tell their congregations to vote for the coalition. Ayatollah Shirazi's organization finances a local university, satellite channel and radio station, all of which have given exposure to the coalition's candidates.

One option for more secular candidates is alliances with tribal leaders, who often have the clout to deliver a substantial number of votes.

On Thursday afternoon, Sheik Abdul Karim Mahoud al-Muhammadawi, a candidate and the leader of a small party, received several dozen such leaders in the courtyard of a house in eastern Baghdad. For hours, the men sat in two long rows, sipping tea and asking Sheik Muhammadawi for his views on various topics. He responded at length.

Afterward, Ali Feisal al-Lami, the sheik's campaign manager, explained that some of the men indicated they would urge their followers to vote for the sheik's candidates.

Private networks like these are crucial in Iraq's hierarchical society, Mr. Lami said. Similar networks exist among devotees of Iraq's leading Shiite ayatollahs, he added.

Abdul Razzaq al-Saiedi and Khalid al-Ansary contributed reporting for this article.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 03:59 pm
And CI conveniently refused to answer the question which had nothing to do with the answer he chose to give instead.

I didn't ask whether torture happens or whether torture works or whether torture should be condoned under any circumtances. I wonder if CI can answer the question I did ask?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 04:02 pm
No elaboration is needed. Torture is not acceptable no matter how it's proclaimed by our government.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 04:29 pm
So you won't answer the question CI? That's cool. I didn't think you would but thought I would give you the benefit of the doubt.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Dec, 2005 06:16 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
fox, It's been shown repeatedly that torture does not work. They will say what the captors want to hear. The most important issue is that torture is not acceptable to most Americans; that's the reason why many still say it was a good idea to get rid of Saddam - and his tortures.

The pictures of our troops torturing Iraqis/insurgents shown all over the world has been detrimental to our image. It's been tarnished forever for some folks.


Torture does work. For example, it worked on John McCain when he was a prisoner of the North Vietnamese. Yes, in that instance he told them what they wanted to hear and broadcast to the world. However, torture-ex, (i.e., torture excluding killing maiming disabling and wounding) probably wouldn't have worked on McCain to cause him to say what his captors wanted.

Torture-ex (repeated as necessary) does work in obtaining information that is subsequently verifiable by our military: for example, information about the location of ordnance and/or combatant sanctuaries or staging/training areas. Torture-ex does not work very well obtaining information about future plans or past actions. And, torture-ex does not work trying to obtain valid evidence to indict or convict a prisoner.

As far as our image in other people's eyes is concerned, our image regarding our prisoner interrogation techniques is bad. As far as our image regarding our military's ability to do its job is concerned, our image is good, in fact excellent. However, as far as our image regarding the perseverance and the commitment of Americans to win is concerned, our image is terrible.

But our perseverance and ability to win does not depend on our image in other people's eyes. It depends only on our own self-image -- our own American self-image. That of course, depends on our will, our commitment to learn from our mistakes, and our commitment to make measureable progress. We're currently adequate; we're doing ok. We will continue to do ok as long as we ignore cannots among us and join with cans.
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