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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:07 am
Well as Tony Blair has said the rules of the game have changed. If British 'security forces' are prepared to pump 7 dum dum bullets into the head of an innocent Brazilian, because they thought he might be a Muslim terrorist, then a spot of torture is hardly worth mentioning. We tortured Irish terrorists in the 70's and 80's. There were paramilitary assassination teams too, taking their orders from 'security forces'. Blair is wrong, the game goes on as usual.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:07 am
John McCain said yesterday in an interview, quoting a mentor of his, that no information elicited by torture could ever counterbalance the loss of respect for this country, abroad and here, for such actions that deny our national principles.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:14 am
ican711nm wrote:
blatham wrote:
Adding this link in the event someone might wish to wade in and view this report...

Quote:
Control of Iraq's future oil wealth is being handed to multinational oil companies through long-term contracts that will cost Iraq hundreds of billions of dollars.
...
http://www.carbonweb.org/crudedesigns.htm

The development of Iraq oil reserves by private companies will cost the Iraqi people nothing. The development of Iraq oil reserves by the Iraqi government will cost the Iraqi people substantially. Private companies motivated by competition and profit will develop Iraq oil reserves more efficiently, more effectively, more rapidly, more competently, and more profitably than any government. Consequently, the Iraqi people's share of revenue from such development will grow far more rapidly to a far greater magnitude than it would if government performed that development. Also consequently, the world's supply of oil will grow more rapidly to a far greater magnitude than it would if government performed that development.

Whoops! Shocked Idea Ahaa!

That's exactly what all the pseudo environmentalists oppose. That's exactly why they want more government involvement in the economies of the world. They know better than most that will suppress economies worldwide. It might even curtail the world's human population growth because of consequent human starvation. They advocate human population control too!

These pseudo environmentalists prefer to act like they believe CO2 and CH4 emissions cause earth warming, and not known cyclic rises in the sun's radiation. By doing that necessary for reducing the amount of CO2 and CH4 annually emitted into the atmosphere, they will also help supress economies worldwide. That is why they sneer at the relevance of the observed general warming trend of Mars -- a planet absent humans, 141 million miles from the sun compared to earth's 93 million miles from the sun -- to earth's general warming trend since the end of the last earth ice age 10 thousand years ago.

But what the hell, that's merely one more way to suppress humanity besides defending the spread -- or obstructing the supression of the spread -- of the al Qaeda religion. When people prosper, some prosper more than others. Cannot allow that. Must suppress envy at all cost by making sure everyone possesses the same wealth: UH, that is, possess the same consequent misery such tactics will actually produce. Twisted Evil


Laughing next
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:17 am
Kara wrote:
John McCain said yesterday in an interview, quoting a mentor of his, that no information elicited by torture could ever counterbalance the loss of respect for this country, abroad and here, for such actions that deny our national principles.

Those prisoner interrogators or guards who kill, maim, disable, or injure prisoners, when proven to have done such, have been and are either jailed or, occassionally, executed.

Other kinds of torture are performed on prisoners and apparently permitted.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:26 am
icant, Do you ever consider the immoral treatment of mis-identified spies like the innocent German who was tortured?
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:35 am
... and do you, ican, consider that experience has consistently proven torture worthless at extracting useful information?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:35 am
Quote:
QUESTION: Madame Secretary, is the United States only obliged to prevent cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment to its detainees on U.S. territory?


SECRETARY RICE: Mr. President -- to answer this question. As you know, it's been an issue here on my trip. As a matter of U.S. policy, the United States obligations under the CAT, which prohibits, of course, cruel and inhumane and degrading treatment, those obligations extend to U.S. personnel wherever they are, whether they are in the United States or outside of the United States.
source: US Department of Foreign Affairs transcript as of December 7, 2005, Press Availability With Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko


The "US personnel" that is that the key, e.g. the Bush administration has the Egyptians torture detainees for it? Or perhaps because the renditions are flown by contractors, they are not technically US personnel?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:42 am
Oh dear Dr Rice tells lies. And she seemed so nice at first.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:45 am
Interesting, it seemed for awhile that the good Dr Rice was actually going to take the place of that Colin Powell fellow as a voice of reason in the Bush Admin. Sad really as it turns out she is not.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:48 am
Quote:
Those prisoner interrogators or guards who kill, maim, disable, or injure prisoners, when proven to have done such, have been and are either jailed or, occassionally, executed.


This is not true, ican, if such interrogators (or secret prison employees) are either unidentified nor held responsible.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:49 am
Those people and/or their cohorts and/or their abettors, who have declared war against civilians, and who have declared their intention to murder civilians, and who have murdered civilians (e.g., supporters of the al Qaeda religion), do not have any rights whatsoever "to legal representation nor to basic human rights and dignity."

Too many here would rather grant legal representation and basic human rights and dignity to such people, than do what is necessary to secure those same rights to the future victims of those people and/or their cohorts and/or their abettors, who have declared war against civilians, and who have declared their intention to murder civilians, and who have murdered civilians (e.g., supporters of the al Qaeda religion).

How do I know this? Too many here focus on how we treat our prisoners of such people -- and/or their cohorts and/or their abettors -- who have declared war against civilians, and who have declared their intention to murder civilians, and who have murdered civilians (e.g., supporters of the al Qaeda religion) rather than on such people's past and probable future victims.

Hay you folks, this is the problem that demands our attention now.

Quote:
Al Qaeda's seven phase plan for world conquest:

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West get the infidels to make war on Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al Qaedas banner. This phase is complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." Al Qaeda does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how it's done. This phase to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade. Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that major damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (i.e., one government for all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to either convert to Islam, or submit to Islamic rule. To be completed by 2025.


What do you want done about it? How do you want to do it?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:49 am
December 7, 2005
Not Guilty Verdicts in Florida Terror Trial Are Setback for U.S.
By ERIC LICHTBLAU
WASHINGTON, Dec. 6 - In a major defeat for law enforcement officials, a jury in Florida failed to return guilty verdicts Tuesday on any of 51 criminal counts against a former Florida professor and three co-defendants accused of operating a North American front for Palestinian terrorists.

The former professor, Sami al-Arian, a fiery advocate for Palestinian causes who became a lightning rod for criticism nationwide over his vocal anti-Israeli stances, was found not guilty on eight criminal counts related to terrorist support, perjury and immigration violations.

The jury deadlocked on the remaining nine counts against him after deliberating for 13 days, and it did not return any guilty verdicts against the three other defendants in the case.

"This was a political prosecution from the start, and I think the jury realized that," Linda Moreno, one of Mr. Arian's defense lawyers, said in a telephone interview. "They looked over at Sami al-Arian; they saw a man who had taken unpopular positions on issues thousands of miles away, but they realized he wasn't a terrorist. The truth is a powerful thing."
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:50 am
Dys, she was never going to fill the shoes of that nice fellow, Colin Powell. Hers are a different size. That is why she is Secretary of State and he is not.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 11:51 am
icant refuses to see it, but this administration does everything in its power to silence people like professor Sami al-Arian. That's the danger of Bushco that icant will never understand.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:03 pm
Quote:
Al Qaeda's seven phase plan for world conquest:

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West get the infidels to make war on Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al Qaedas banner. This phase is complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." Al Qaeda does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how it's done. This phase to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade. Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that major damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (i.e., one government for all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to either convert to Islam, or submit to Islamic rule. To be completed by 2025.


No mention there of global warming on Earth or on Mars Ican, what's your point?

To be serious for a moment, would you mind saying if you actually believe this stuff? What's the source of your "quote"?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:09 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:

To be serious for a moment, would you mind saying if you actually believe this stuff? What's the source of your "quote"?


Al Qaeda Has a Plan and Here It Is , by James Dunnigan;
published first September 24, 2005 in e.g. Strategy Page
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:15 pm
Kara wrote:
Quote:
Those prisoner interrogators or guards who kill, maim, disable, or injure prisoners, when proven to have done such, have been and are either jailed or, occassionally, executed.


This is not true, ican, if such interrogators (or secret prison employees) are either unidentified nor held responsible.


This is true whether some or many such interrogators are unidentified or not held accountable (i.e., not held responsible):
Quote:
Those prisoner interrogators or guards who kill, maim, disable, or injure prisoners, when proven to have done such, have been and are either jailed or, occassionally, executed.


The real problem, if it truly exists, is that there are too many such interrogators who are not identified or not held accountable: that is, who are not proven to have done such.

Help me out. I have not encountered any evidence, beyond the written opinions of personal opinion writers, that unidentified or not held accountable interrogators exist.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:17 pm
Thanks Walter. It reminds me of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'....whatever happened to them Wink
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:23 pm
Quote:
I have not encountered any evidence, beyond the written opinions of personal opinion writers, that unidentified or not held accountable interrogators exist.


Where would one get such evidence when the identity of such interrogators in secret locations in other countries is surely deeply buried? The "personal opinion" of some writers is derived from leaked information that such secret prisons exist.

Are you asking why some top administration official does not take the mike and reveal those countries and locations? Yeah. Sure.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Dec, 2005 12:37 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
Thanks Walter. It reminds me of 'The Protocols of the Elders of Zion'....whatever happened to them Wink


Your comment reminds me of a symptom of compulsive fantasy.

Yes, I believe the following accurately represents the system of beliefs of the al Qaeda religion.

Book: Al-Zarqawi: al Qaeda's Second Generation by Jordanian journalist, Fouad Hussein.
Quote:
Al Qaeda's seven phase plan for world conquest:

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West get the infidels to make war on Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al Qaedas banner. This phase is complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." Al Qaeda does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how it's done. This phase to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade. Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that major damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (i.e., one government for all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to either convert to Islam, or submit to Islamic rule. To be completed by 2025.


Booklet by the Pakistani jihadist group Lashkar-e-Taiba (Army of the Pure)
Quote:
… the U.S., Israel and India as existential enemies of Islam and lists eight reasons for global jihad. These include the restoration of Islamic sovereignty to all lands where Muslims were once ascendant, including Spain, "Bulgaria, Hungary, Cyprus, Sicily, Ethiopia, Russian Turkistan and Chinese Turkistan. . . Even parts of France reaching 90 kilometers outside Paris." Blaming the U.S. for the delusions of these admittedly small groups confers a degree of legitimacy on Islamist extremists and undermines moderate Muslim struggling for the soul of their faith.


Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi
www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
Quote:
A summary of Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi July 9, 2005.

The war in Iraq is central to al Qa'ida's global jihad.

The war will not end with an American departure.

Thir strategic vision is one of inevitable conflict with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.

Popular support must be maintained at least until jihadist rule has been established.

More than half the struggle is taking place "in the battlefield of the media."

Letter in English at:
www.dni.gov/letter_in_english.pdf


In its 1996 fatwah al Qaeda stated:
http://www.mideastweb.org/osambinladen1.htm
Quote:
Those youths know that their rewards in fighting you, the USA, is double than their rewards in fighting some one else not from the people of the book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, and enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same hell with his righteous executioner.


In its 1998 fatwah al Qaeda stated:
http://www.mideastweb.org/osambinladen1.htm
Quote:
… when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: "I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped", Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders.

… to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it.


In its 2004 fatwah, al Qaeda stated:
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html
Quote:
Once again, we repeat our call and send this clear message to our Muslim brothers, warning against fellowship with the Crusaders, the Americans, Westerners and all idols in the Arab Gulf. Muslims should not associate with them anywhere, be it in their homes, complexes or travel with them by any means of transportation.

Prophet Muhammad said "I am free from who lives among idols".

No Muslim should risk his life as he may inadvertently be killed if he associates with the Crusaders, whom we have no choice but to kill.

Everything related to them such as complexes, bases, means of transportation, especially Western and American Airlines, will be our main and direct targets in our forthcoming operations on our path of Jihad that we, with Allah's Power, will not turn away from.
0 Replies
 
 

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