0
   

US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 06:52 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
From the BBC:
Iraqi detainees tell of torture
By Caroline Hawley
BBC News, Baghdad

Prisoners at an Iraqi detention centre opened up to journalists have told the BBC of widespread abuse
...

If you believe testimony from terrorist prisoners that murder civilians or abet the murder of civilians, it explains how you got that bridge you want to sell. You bought it and now are trying to recover your own loss.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 07:19 pm
ehBeth wrote:
ican - the 10th whereas makes as much sense as attacking American tourists in Britain because other American tourists behaved stupidly while vacationing in Bermuda.

<that's right. no sense. at all>

The wording of this post of yours does itself need some editing for it to make sense.

I'll give it a try: <the 10th whereas makes as much sense as Britain invading America because the American government harbors French tourists who declared war against the British and murdered thousands of British civilians in Britain.>

Oh my! Sorry, that does make sense ... and so does:
Quote:
(the 10th) Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq;


A majority of Congressional Democrats as well as Republicans in the Congress of the USA thought it made sense too. But then, what do they know? Laughing
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Nov, 2005 07:41 pm
Hay, Steve, read it before you eat it or drink it!

Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 634, Wednesday, November 23, 2005.

Quote:
November 20, 2005
Op-Ed Columnist
The Importance of Staying With Iraq
By DAVID BROOKS <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/davidbrooks/index.html?inline=nyt-per>

On one level, Jack Murtha is right. The American presence in Iraq does incite violence. The American presence in Iraq does lend popular legitimacy to the terrorists that they would not otherwise have. All things being equal, it would be a good thing if we could reduce the American presence in Iraq.

But when Jack Murtha calls for U.S. withdrawal from Iraq, he is not mostly right. For while the American presence is a catalyst for violence in Iraq, it is not the main catalyst. The main source of violence in Iraq is the sectarian war between the Sunnis and the Shiites. The main source of violence is that the Sunnis think they are the majority and can't accept the possibility that the Shiites, whom they consider as almost subhuman, should be allowed to run their own affairs.

And what also drives violence in Iraq is that the Shiites have responded to Sunni supremacy by turning ultrachauvinist themselves. In the vacuum of security caused by the botched American occupation, these ethnic tensions have turned into a low-grade civil war.

If the U.S. withdraws, that would not eliminate the irritant that plagues Iraqi society. Instead, it would eliminate the one source of authority that prevents the country from imploding.

If the U.S. leaves, Iraq will descend into a full-scale civil war. The Iranians will come in on the side of the Shiites. The Syrians, Saudis and God knows who else will be tempted to come in on the side of the Sunnis. The Turks will be tempted to come in to take care of the Kurds. We might be looking at the Middle East version of World War I.

In his heartfelt cry of agony, Jack Murtha didn't stop to consider the consequences of an immediate U.S. withdrawal. But this is where his policy leads. If the Democrats become the party of withdrawal, this is what they will have to live with. Are they really going to become the Come Home America party of George McGovern once again?

There's another level on which Jack Murtha is partly right. It is true that some in the American military have concluded that the war in Iraq is unwinnable. But here again, Murtha is not mostly right.

As a survey by the Pew Research Center suggests, most journalists and most academics think the war is unwinnable, but 64 percent of military officers believe the U.S. can prevail. Re-enlistment rates are high because most American troops believe they can create a better Iraq.

When you talk to serious, nonpartisan experts with experience on the ground, you find that most think the war is at least a 50-50 proposition. Everyone I've spoken to, given the consequences of bugging out, believes that it is therefore worth struggling on.

Furthermore, almost all the experts believe that after 18 months of incompetence, the U.S. is getting its act together. Zalmay Khalilzad, the best representative the U.S. has had in Iraq, has created a semifunctional political process. Condoleezza Rice has exerted control and has laid out a much more comprehensive and energetic anti-insurgency strategy than anything Donald Rumsfeld ever came up with.

Most important, the training of Iraqi troops has been going well. Authoritative investigators like Jack Keane, the retired Army general, report that the Iraqi troops are becoming effective fighters and their morale is high.

Why does Jack Murtha want to give up just when it might be possible to reap the benefits of these belated accomplishments? Why does he want to give up just before an election, when Sunnis and Shiites might begin to form the sort of national institutions that are required to rebind the two communities and calm the slow-boiling civil war?

Murtha's policy is incomprehensible and it is incomprehensible that so many Democrats are shifting toward accelerated withdrawal.

There's one area, though, where I completely sympathize with Jack Murtha. I sympathize with his frustration. On Feb. 23, 1942, Franklin Roosevelt asked Americans to spread out maps before them and he described, step by step, what was going on in World War II, where the U.S. was winning and where it was losing. Why can't today's president do that? Why can't he show that he is aware that his biggest problem is not in Iraq, it's on the home front?

Since the president doesn't give out credible information, it's no wonder Republicans are measuring success by how quickly we can get out; it's no wonder many Democrats are turning the war into a political tool to bash the president; and it's no wonder that people like well-meaning but weary Jack Murtha have simply given up.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 03:18 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
ican you know if you want people to read such stuff you must give it a personal slant

like

you know I was there and Dick Cheney spilled his coffee

or there was a pause for reflection and someone farted

anything to personalise it

I started at good morning and rapidly scanned through to thank you very much without taking any notice in between


This part was interesting:

"Permit me to burden you with a bit more history: In August of 1998, the U.S. Congress passed a resolution urging President Clinton take "appropriate action" to compel Saddam to come into compliance with his obligations to the Security Council. Not a single senator voted no. Two months later, in October of '98 -- again, without a single dissenting vote in the United States Senate -- the Congress passed the Iraq Liberation Act. It explicitly adopted as American policy supporting efforts to remove Saddam Hussein's regime from power and promoting an Iraqi democracy in its place. And just two months after signing the Iraq Liberation law, President Clinton ordered that Iraq be bombed in an effort to destroy facilities that he believed were connected to Saddam's weapons of mass destruction programs."

Rolling Eyes There were other points of interest, but I excerpted this so ADHD-afflicted Steve (as41oo) could get back to his busy "farting" routine ... Kyoto Protocols be damned. Rolling Eyes
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 06:55 am
Yea, but he wasn't advocating an all out invasion, occupation and war. Nor did he recommend rushing war without exhausting all options. All options were not out yet, inspections were ongoing and by and large, Saddam was complying with the inspections. David Kay's report said as much. There were a few unanswered questions but those questions in no way justified a rush to war. There was no need to rush to war when Bush did it and that is the plain truth of the matter. Had he waited and let the inspections continue we would have seen there was no weapons of destructions, we could handled all other problems much the same we do other more troubled spots in the world.

This debate has gone on so long and everything has been said on all sides of the issue. No matter how many times Cheney or Bush gives a speech about it; the debate remains the same.

For all those who celebrate: Happy Thanksgiving.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 08:42 am
Quote:

The Wall Street Journal

November 23, 2005

THE HARRIS POLL

DOW JONES REPRINTS
This copy is for your personal, non-commercial use only. To order presentation-ready copies for distribution to your colleagues, clients or customers, use the Order Reprints tool at the bottom of any article or visit:
www.djreprints.com.

• See a sample reprint in PDF format.
• Order a reprint of this article now.

Majority Believe White House
Misleads Public, Poll Shows
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL ONLINE
November 23, 2005

A majority of U.S. adults believe the Bush administration generally misleads the public on current issues, while fewer than a third of Americans believe the information provided by the administration is generally accurate, the latest Harris Interactive poll finds.

While the telephone survey of 1,011 U.S. adults indicates about 64% of Americans believe the Bush administration "generally misleads the American public on current issues to achieve its own ends," opinion on the topic is clearly divided along party lines. A large majority (68% to 28%) of Republicans say the Bush administration generally provides accurate information. However, even larger majorities of Democrats (91% to 7%) and Independents (73% to 25%) think the information is generally misleading.

When asked about former Vice Presidential Chief of Staff Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who has been indicted on charges of perjury, obstruction of justice and making false statements, more than half of U.S. adults say the situation indicates "a larger problem in the Bush administration," while 35% say it was an "isolated incident." About 82% of Democrats say it indicates a larger problem, while 70% of Republicans feel the Libby case is an isolated incident.

The latest poll also finds U.S. adults are divided on the direction they feel Mr. Bush is trying to move the Supreme Court. About 42% of those surveyed think Mr. Bush is trying to make the high court too conservative, while 44% think he is trying to make it neither too conservative nor too liberal. Only 9% believe Mr. Bush is trying to make the Supreme Court too liberal, according to the poll.

See the full results of the Harris poll: w.harrispollonline.com3.
URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113268445376804317.html

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 10:10 am
Quote:
Only 9% believe Mr. Bush is trying to make the Supreme Court too liberal, according to the poll.


Only?!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 10:18 am
Bush rushed to war, because he understood nothing of the consequences. After more than 17,000 dead and injured American soldiers, he still doesn't get it - not to mention the estimated 100,000 innocent dead Iraqis.

Only criminals believe they are infallible.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 12:11 pm
revel wrote:
Had he waited and let the inspections continue we would have seen there was no weapons of destructions, we could handled all other problems much the same we do other more troubled spots in the world.


Like this one's being handled?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-11-24-eu-iran_x.htm?csp=24

The democracy lovers in Beijing & Moscow seem to agree with you.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 12:57 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
...

Only criminals believe they are infallible.


Aaha!
CI, do you believe this statement of yours infallible?

More to the point, do you believe you are infallible? Laughing

Happy Thanksgiving to one and all -- including those who do not choose to celebrate it at all!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 01:10 pm
Haste makes waste! But on the otherhand, He who hesitates is lost! Confused

Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 635, Friday, November 25, 2005

Quote:
November 22, 2005, 1:18 p.m.
On the Other Hand ...
Wm. F. Buckley

The headlines today — "Iraqi Factions/Seek Timetable/For U.S. Pullout" — encourage another look at the Iraq situation, focused not on the desolation of the enterprise, but on the planks of despair. Is it really true that the Sunni and the Shiites are making common cause? Indeed, the report in the New York Times tells of 100 Sunni, Shiite, and Kurdish leaders who have signed a statement in which "a withdrawal of foreign troops" is demanded "on a specified timetable, dependent on an immediate national program for rebuilding the security forces."

A learned observer writes about that which he classifies as "increasingly surreal." "I find, about discussions of Iraq, two universes of discourse, parallel but not contiguous. When I talk to one set of friends and acquaintances or read what they write, I get one version of what is going on. When I talk with another set, or read what they write, I get an entirely different and incompatible assessment. If you talk to military affairs specialists like Victor Davis Hanson, or political analysts like David Pryce-Jones, you get the sense that immense progress has been and is being made both in getting rid of the terrorists and in establishing a workable society in Iraq."

It is certainly true that we do not read much about, or ponder at all, the importance of terrorist plots discovered and disrupted. We are not told how many senior al-Qaeda agents are in custody.

We are reminded of the Iraq constitution and know, of course, of the great election only a few weeks away, on December 15. Is there a corresponding explosion of municipal and business infrastructure? Water and sanitation and communications systems, schools, oil pipelines, local and national business initiatives? Does the eye of reason see in the frenzies of the terrorists desperation of the kind insurgents feel who see defeat ahead, not victory? The kind of people who are prepared to bomb children to express their desperation?

Critics talk of "racing for the exits" in Iraq. But — most emphatically, by a vote of 403–3 — Congress recently rejected with fervor exits of the type associated with despair. The terrorists are acting like the beleaguered Japanese in Okinawa when they saw themselves destined to defeat, alienation, and even deracination. My friend writes of one critic's "tendentious assertions, typically offered in the protasis of his sentences in order to enhance the aura of casual but apodictic assurance. 'But while the war is lost both as a political matter at home and a practical matter in Iraq . . . ' Hello? What confirmation do we have of exit strategies going on by the president or his Secretary of State or his Secretary of Defense?"

The New York Post on Sunday assembled a comparison of what Messrs. Reid, Clinton, Dean, Biden, Kennedy, Kerry, Gore, and Byrd had to say about going into Iraq, the threat of Iraq, the dangers in ignoring the threat of Iraq, the advantages, strategic and moral in asserting ourselves there, the need to enforce the resolutions of the U.N. being ignored by Saddam Hussein. . . The Post set these comments over against the language being used today by the summer soldiers. It is illuminating and casts a long shadow over the future of the United States, the security of the commander in chief, and the longevity of the national will.

My correspondent concludes, "You told me that your friend predicted that within six months of the election, it would be clear to all that the country was on its feet. Is he correct? I do not know. I note that many people assured me that a constitution would never be ratified in Iraq. They were, by and large, the same people who assured me that were the U.S. to invade Iraq, the Arab street would erupt in a world jihad.

"The supposedly impossible thing in fact happened, and the dead certainty failed to take place. Even more curious is how little difference that has made in the — is the word appropriate? — debate. Reality — what actually happened or seemed to happen — somehow hasn't counted for much when it comes to informing opinion on Iraq. Six months from the election takes us to 15 June. It would be interesting to step back and specify some milestones by which we could judge the campaign: what developments, were they accomplished, would lead us to judge the venture a success? What are some alternative eventualities that would compel us to acknowledge failure?

"We could scribble a few such criteria on a sheet of paper now and seal it in an envelope marked, 'Do not open until June 15, 2006.' Then, on a balmy summer eve, we could have an envelope-opening ceremony and see where things stood. I suspect the backers of Mr. Bush would have something to celebrate."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 01:46 pm
revel wrote:
Yea, but he wasn't advocating an all out invasion, occupation and war. Nor did he recommend rushing war without exhausting all options. All options were not out yet, inspections were ongoing and by and large, Saddam was complying with the inspections. ...

All true on Clinton's watch! Also true, 9/11 did not occur on Clinton's watch (not to mention the harboring of al Qaeda training camps in Iraq). But what if it had?

Do you think Clinton unlike Bush could have prevented 9/11 with Jamie Gorelich's intelligence walls firmly in place.

Or, do you think Clinton would have treated 9/11 also as nothing more than just another dreadful criminal act for our criminal justice system to pursue?

Or, do you think Clinton would have made another plea to the UN to make another resolution?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 05:04 pm
Gorelich (I am going to trust that is how you spell her name, lazy after eating all day at various family gatherings-wish everyone would just meet at one giant place..) Anyway, her walls just dealt with United States citizens within our borders, I believe. (again too lazy to double check) So those walls had no effect on the terrorist who carried out the attacks.

Clinton would have went to Afghanistan same as Bush did once the taliban said they wouldn't give up Bin Laden, he probably would have stayed in enough force to get the job done though before harrying off to another war.

Bush made a plea for a resolution, he just didn't think he had the votes so he stopped that effort before it's completion.
0 Replies
 
Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 06:09 pm
Even all this talk of a pullout doesn't slow down the attacks....makes me wonder if they're going to continue regardless.

Excerpt:

Quote:


Source
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Nov, 2005 06:17 pm
revel wrote:
Clinton would have went to Afghanistan same as Bush did once the taliban said they wouldn't give up Bin Laden, he probably would have stayed in enough force to get the job done though before harrying off to another war.


Most likely, Clinton would have huffed & puffed, gone to Afghanistan, and then turned tail and run when things got ugly ... just like he did in Somalia.
0 Replies
 
Mortkat
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2005 12:17 am
Old Europe obvioulsy knows very little about the Food for Oil Scandal---The Chicago Tribune Editorial reports:

quote

Volcker's 632 page report says that more than half of the 4,700 companies worldwide that participated in oil for food paid some $1.8 Billion in illegal kickbacks to the former Iraqi regime.

BUT WHO WAS REALLY BRIBING WHOM?

...Tariq Aziz, Iraq's former deputy prime minister, has told probers that beneficiaries of Hussein's largess received oil allocations PEGGED TO THIER LEVEL OF OPPOSITION TO SANCTIONS...Iraq used its oil wealth to influence some countries policies at the United Nations, awarding Russia 19 Billion in oil contracts and France 4.4 Billion in deals.

AND SOME OPPONENTS OF THE WAR STILL FAULT THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE WISDOM OF FRANCE, RUSSIA AND OTHER TAINTED GOVERNMENTS IN VIEWING A WAR AS UNNECESSARY?????

With so many of Hussein's influential defenders around the world on the take, it's remarkable that the UN Security Council even went through the charade of adopting all of its anti-Iraq resolutions--demands on Hussein that many governments CLEARLY HAD NO INTENTION OF SEEING ENFORCED."

END OF QUOTE
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2005 07:37 am
Mortkat, I imagine after being ragged about leaving Somalia, he would have known better to make the same mistake again.

The US participated 52% in the oil for food kick backs. Maybe we just wanted to cut out the middle man.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2005 12:30 pm
revel wrote:
Gorelich ... walls just dealt with United States citizens within our borders, I believe. (again too lazy to double check) So those walls had no effect on the terrorist who carried out the attacks.

WRONG!
Those Gorelich walls prevented the FBI, CIA, NSA, and other USA intelligence agencies from sharing their intelligence on international terrorist plans, operations, and persons. The result was those walls stifled USA intelligence and ultimately rendered it incompetent.

revel wrote:
Clinton would have went to Afghanistan same as Bush did once the taliban said they wouldn't give up Bin Laden, he probably would have stayed in enough force to get the job done though before harrying off to another war.

Bush made a plea for a resolution, he just didn't think he had the votes so he stopped that effort before it's completion.


Perhaps under the same circumstances (e.g., 9/11), Clinton would have done exactly what Bush did. Note Bush did not seek a UN resolution to invade Afghanistan.

Bush did not seek a UN resolution to invade Iraq because both the French and Russians told him they each would veto such a resolution. Each one alone, as do each of the other permanent members of the UN Security Council (e.g., USA, Britain, China), possesses the power of veto.

Perhaps the French and Russian billion dollar investments in Saddam's corruption of the UN's Oil for Food Program (and other programs), contributed to each of their decisions to veto such a resolution.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2005 12:42 pm
revel wrote:
Mortkat, I imagine after being ragged about leaving Somalia, he would have known better to make the same mistake again.

The US participated 52% in the oil for food kick backs. Maybe we just wanted to cut out the middle man.


WRONG AGAIN!

Unlike the French and Russian governments, the USA government did not participate in the UN Oil for Food Program. Less than one-millionth of the USA's citizens participated in Saddam's corruption of the UN Oil for Food Program.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Nov, 2005 01:27 pm
MY PRINCIPLE SOURCES:

1. Osama Bin Laden "Declaration of War Against the Americans Occupying the Land of the Two Holy Places"-1996;
and,
Osama Bin Laden: Text of Fatwah Urging Jihad Against Americans-1998
http://www.mideastweb.org/osambinladen1.htm
[scroll down to find them both]

2. Al-Qaida Statement Warning Muslims Against Associating With The Crusaders And Idols; Translation By JUS; Jun 09, 2004
Al-Qaida Organization of the Arab Gulf; 19 Rabbi Al-Akhir 1425
http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg00035.html

3. 9-11 Commission, 9/20/2004
www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm

4. Charles Duelfer's Report, 30 September 2004
Regime Strategic Intent – Key Findings [re: allegations of Iraq WMD]
www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd_2004/Comp_Report_Key_Findings.pdf

5. Public Law 107-243, 107th Congress, Joint Resolution, Oct. 16, 2002, H.J. Res. 114,
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq
www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf

6. Secretary of State, Colin Powell’s speech to UN, 2/5/2003,
"sinister nexus"
http://www.state.gov/secretary/former/powell/remarks/2003/17300.htm

7. "American Soldier," by General Tommy Franks, 7/1/2004
"10" Regan Books, An Imprint of HarperCollins Publishers

8. The Encyclopedia Britannica
IRAQ
www.britannica.com

9. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
ISLAMIC MOVEMENT IN KURDISTAN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan;
ANSAR AL-ISLAM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam

10. Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
TERRORIST INCIDENTS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#1996
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 05/20/2025 at 09:12:43