0
   

US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 05:28 pm
McTag wrote:
So the cons want to discuss the ancient peoples of the Fertile Crescent, instead of the current situation ....I wonder why that is?


It is a more fertile field for disputation than the performance of their pet president, whose policy is dead in the water, while the character of "liar" is more firmly applied to him every day . . .
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 05:57 pm
McTag wrote:
So the cons want to discuss the ancient peoples of the Fertile Crescent, instead of the current situation ....I wonder why that is?

The reason is simple.

Some posters here claim the middle east region is owned by the Arabs (i.e., people who originated in Arabia). Because of that, they claim Americans and other non-arabs, residing on land in the middle east region, are thereby trespassers. In fact, many Arabs claim the same. Most notable among such Arab claimants is Osama bin Laden (see his fatwahs of 1996, 1998, and 2000).

I claim the Arabs currently own that conquered by them or their ancestors that has not subsequently been conquered by non-arab conquerers. Or, they own land they have purchased in mutually agreed transactions that has not subsequently been conquered by non-arabs. Consequently, Americans and other non-arabs, residing on land in the middle east region that they have purchased in mutually agreed transactions, are not thereby trespassers.

I claim the region called Palestine is an example of a part of the middle eastern region that has been subsequently conquered by non-arabs. The Arabs themselves first began conquering Palestine in the 7th Century and completely conquered Palestine by the year 640 AD. The Arabs in Palestine were subsequently completely conquered by the Crusaders in 1099 AD, only to be subsequently completely conquered themselves in 1187 AD by Saladin. ...And so on and so on. The Arabs have not yet reconquered Palestine.

"What goes around, comes around?"
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 07:16 pm
Jews are an example of people claimed by Arabs to be trespassers residing in the middle east region. But they were not trespassers: these Jews purchased land from Palestinian Arabs in mutually agreed transactions.

Nonetheless, subsequently, many Palestinian Arabs claimed these Jews were trespassers and began killing them.

Quote:
1920 AD: 5 Jews killed, 200 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.
1921 AD: 46 Jews killed, 146 wounded in anti-zionist riots in Palestine.


Then the Jews began to fight back and started killing Arabs.

Quote:
1929 AD: 133 Jews killed, 339 wounded
1929 AD: 116 Arabs killed, 232 wounded.

1936,38,39 AD: 329 Jews killed, 857 wounded
1936,38,39 AD: 3,112 Arabs killed, 1,775 wounded
1936,38,39 AD: 135 Brits killed, 386 wounded.
1936,38,39 AD: 110 Arabs hanged 5,679 jailed.

1947 AD: UN resolution partitions Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State.
1948 AD: Civil war breaks out between Jews and Arabs.
1948 AD: State of Israel conquers part of Palestine.


Now the state of Israel includes Palestinian land previously purchased in mutually agreed transactions, and Palestinian land that was subsequently conquered.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 07:33 pm
If all the al Qaeda terrorists want is to get the USA military out of Iraq, they could accomplish that easily.

All the al Qaeda terrorists have to do is stop killing Iraqi civilians long enough to convince the USA there no longer remains a need to stay to help secure the elected Iraqi government. Then the thousands of USA military would be out of there in less than a year.

But unfortunately the al Qaeda terrorists want far more.

This reveals al Qaeda's true intent better than anything published in TOMNOM (i.e., The Oxy-Moron News-Opinion Media).
[boldface added by ican]
Quote:

www.dni.gov/release_letter_101105.html
Letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi, October 11, 2005
ODNI News Release No. 2-05

Today the Office of the Director of National Intelligence released a letter between two senior al Qa'ida leaders, Ayman al-Zawahiri and Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, that was obtained during counterterrorism operations in Iraq. This lengthy document provides a comprehensive view of al Qa'ida's strategy in Iraq and globally.

The letter from al-Zawahiri to al-Zarqawi is dated July 9, 2005. The contents were released only after assurances that no ongoing intelligence or military operations would be affected by making this document public.

The document has not been edited in any way and is released in its entirety in both the Arabic and English translated forms. The United States Government has the highest confidence in the letter's authenticity.

Al-Zawahiri's letter offers a strategic vision for al Qa'ida's direction for Iraq and beyond, and portrays al Qa'ida's senior leadership's isolation and dependence.

Among the letter's highlights are discussions indicating:

The centrality of the war in Iraq for the global jihad.

From al Qa'ida's point of view, the war does not end with an American departure.

An acknowledgment of the appeal of democracy to the Iraqis.

The strategic vision of inevitable conflict, with a tacit recognition of current political dynamics in Iraq; with a call by al-Zawahiri for political action equal to military action.

The need to maintain popular support at least until jihadist rule has been established.

Admission that more than half the struggle is taking place "in the battlefield of the media."


Letter in English
www.dni.gov/letter_in_english.pdf
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 08:30 pm
Distributed by: American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 631, Wednesday, November 16, 2005
Quote:
Who Is Lying About Iraq ?

By Norman Podhoretz

Commentary Magazine.com | November 11, 2005

[This article will appear in the December issue of Commentary but has been released in advance at the magazine's website, www.commentarymagazine.com <http://www.commentarymagazine.com> ]


Among the many distortions, misrepresentations, and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral and/or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed.

What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up, or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what.

Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled.

The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

This entire scenario of purported deceit has been given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had “outed” Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Wilson for having “debunked” (in his words) “the lies that led to war.”

Now, as it happens, Libby was not charged with having outed Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that

>
>> [t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the
>> propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort,
>> people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not
>> look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any
>> vindication of how they feel.
>>
>> This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation
>> about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place
>> in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a
>> person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting that

>
>> [t]his case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about
>> how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order
>> to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to
>> challenge the President.

Yet even stipulating—which I do only for the sake of argument—that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.

How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

>
>> Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological,
>> nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

>
>> The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at
>> a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a
>> relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there
>> in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such
>> munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The
>> discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue
>> of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

Blix now claims that he was only being “cautious” here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration “misled itself” in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand.

So, once again, did the British, the French, and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell’s reading of the satellite photos he presented to the UN in the period leading up to the invasion. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as Secretary of State. But Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did:

>
>> I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that
>> most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5
>> February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you
>> see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons
>> ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those
>> signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re
>> there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you
>> see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in
>> their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and
>> everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was
>> convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were
>> presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.

Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) was convinced:

>
>> People say, well, INR dissented. That’s a bunch of bull. INR dissented that
>> the nuclear program was up and running. That’s all INR dissented on. They
>> were right there with the chems and the bios.

In explaining its dissent on Iraq’s nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about

>
>> Iraq’s efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument
>> that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not
>> persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge
>> rotors . . . in Iraq’s nuclear-weapons program.

But, according to Wilkerson,

>
>> The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we
>> have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this RPM, et cetera,
>> et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes
>> were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges.
>> Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments?

In short, and whether or not it included the secret heart of Hans Blix, “the consensus of the intelligence community,” as Wilkerson puts it, “was overwhelming” in the period leading up to the invasion of Iraq that Saddam definitely had an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was also in all probability well on the way to rebuilding the nuclear capability that the Israelis had damaged by bombing the Osirak reactor in 1981.

Additional confirmation of this latter point comes from Kenneth Pollack, who served in the National Security Council under Clinton. “In the late spring of 2002,” Pollack has written,

>
>> I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present
>> included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special
>> Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the
>> elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the
>> group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a
>> secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed
>> Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating
>> uranium isotopes).

No wonder, then, that another conclusion the NIE of 2002 reached with “high confidence” was that

>
>> Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires
>> sufficient weapons-grade fissile material. (1)

But the consensus on which Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration. Here is Clinton himself, speaking in 1998:

>
>> If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We
>> want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s
>> weapons-of-mass-destruction program.

Here is his Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998:

>
>> Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great
>> deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear,
>> chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest
>> security threat we face.

Here is Sandy Berger, Clinton’s National Security Adviser, who chimed in at the same time with this flat-out assertion about Saddam:

>
>> He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times
>> since 1983.

Finally, Clinton’s Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, was so sure Saddam had stockpiles of WMD that he remained “absolutely convinced” of it even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003.

Nor did leading Democrats in Congress entertain any doubts on this score. A few months after Clinton and his people made the statements I have just quoted, a group of Democratic Senators, including such liberals as Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and John Kerry, urged the President

>
>> to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile
>> strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed
>> by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

Nancy Pelosi, the future leader of the Democrats in the House, and then a member of the House Intelligence Committee, added her voice to the chorus:

>
>> Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of
>> weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in
>> the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.

This Democratic drumbeat continued and even intensified when Bush succeeded Clinton in 2001, and it featured many who would later pretend to have been deceived by the Bush White House. In a letter to the new President, a number of Senators led by Bob Graham declared:

>
>> There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons
>> programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs
>> continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam
>> continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a
>> licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten
>> the United States and our allies.

Senator Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

>
>> Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the
>> region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building
>> weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

>
>> In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that
>> Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons
>> stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also
>> given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda
>> members.

Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, agreed as well:

>
>> There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively
>> to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the
>> next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated
>> the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.

Even more striking were the sentiments of Bush’s opponents in his two campaigns for the presidency. Thus Al Gore in September 2002:

>
>> We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical
>> weapons throughout his country.

And here is Gore again, in that same year:

>
>> Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to
>> deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is
>> in power.

Now to John Kerry, also speaking in 2002:

>
>> I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to
>> use force—if necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a
>> deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and
>> grave threat to our security.

Perhaps most startling of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Senators Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002:

>
>> Kennedy : We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and
>> developing weapons of mass destruction.
>>
>> Byrd : The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are
>> confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and
>> biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to
>> build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence
>> reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons. (2)

Liberal politicians like these were seconded by the mainstream media, in whose columns a very different tune would later be sung. For example, throughout the last two years of the Clinton administration, editorials in the New York Times repeatedly insisted that

>
>> without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons
>> and missile plants within a year [and] future military attacks may be
>> required to diminish the arsenal again.

The Times was also skeptical of negotiations, pointing out that it was

>
>> hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his
>> commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as his
>> country’s salvation.

So, too, the Washington Post, which greeted the inauguration of George W. Bush in January 2001 with the admonition that

>
>> [o]f all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is
>> more dangerous—or more urgent—than the situation in Iraq. Over the last
>> year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling
>> attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to
>> isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its
>> weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a
>> dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . .
>> show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical
>> and biological weapons. (3)

All this should surely suffice to prove far beyond any even unreasonable doubt that Bush was telling what he believed to be the truth about Saddam’s stockpile of WMD. It also disposes of the fallback charge that Bush lied by exaggerating or hyping the intelligence presented to him. Why on earth would he have done so when the intelligence itself was so compelling that it convinced everyone who had direct access to it, and when hardly anyone in the world believed that Saddam had, as he claimed, complied with the sixteen resolutions of the Security Council demanding that he get rid of his weapons of mass destruction?

Another fallback charge is that Bush, operating mainly through Cheney, somehow forced the CIA into telling him what he wanted to hear. Yet in its report of 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, while criticizing the CIA for relying on what in hindsight looked like weak or faulty intelligence, stated that it

>
>> did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce,
>> influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq’s
>> weapons-of-mass-destruction capabilities.

The March 2005 report of the equally bipartisan Robb-Silberman commission, which investigated intelligence failures on Iraq, reached the same conclusion, finding

>
>> no evidence of political pressure to influence the intelligence community’s
>> pre-war assessments of Iraq’s weapons programs. . . . [A]nalysts universally
>> asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or
>> alter any of their analytical judgments.

Still, even many who believed that Saddam did possess WMD, and was ruthless enough to use them, accused Bush of telling a different sort of lie by characterizing the risk as “imminent.” But this, too, is false: Bush consistently rejected imminence as a justification for war. (4) Thus, in the State of the Union address he delivered only three months after 9/11, Bush declared that he would “not wait on events while dangers gather” and that he would “not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer.” Then, in a speech at West Point six months later, he reiterated the same point: “If we wait for threats to materialize, we will have waited too long.” And as if that were not clear enough, he went out of his way in his State of the Union address in 2003 (that is, three months before the invasion), to bring up the word “imminent” itself precisely in order to repudiate it:

>
>> Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have
>> terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on
>> notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly
>> emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late.
>> Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy,
>> and it is not an option.

What of the related charge that it was still another “lie” to suggest, as Bush and his people did, that a connection could be traced between Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who had attacked us on 9/11? This charge was also rejected by the Senate Intelligence Committee. Contrary to how its findings were summarized in the mainstream media, the committee’s report explicitly concluded that al Qaeda did in fact have a cooperative, if informal, relationship with Iraqi agents working under Saddam. The report of the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to the same conclusion, as did a comparably independent British investigation conducted by Lord Butler, which pointed to “meetings . . . between senior Iraqi representatives and senior al-Qaeda operatives.” (5)

Which brings us to Joseph C. Wilson, IV and what to my mind wins the palm for the most disgraceful instance of all.

The story begins with the notorious sixteen words inserted—after, be it noted, much vetting by the CIA and the State Department—into Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address:

>
>> The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought
>> significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

This is the “lie” Wilson bragged of having “debunked” after being sent by the CIA to Niger in 2002 to check out the intelligence it had received to that effect. Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission, and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the Vice President’s idea. But Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, through whom Wilson first planted this impression, was eventually forced to admit that “Cheney apparently didn’t know that Wilson had been dispatched.” (By the time Kristof grudgingly issued this retraction, Wilson himself, in characteristically shameless fashion, was denying that he had ever “said the Vice President sent me or ordered me sent.”) And as for his wife’s supposed non-role in his mission, here is what Valerie Plame Wilson wrote in a memo to her boss at the CIA:

>
>> My husband has good relations with the PM [the prime minister of Niger] and
>> the former minister of mines . . . , both of whom could possibly shed light
>> on this sort of activity.

More than a year after his return, with the help of Kristof, and also Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, and then through an op-ed piece in the Times under his own name, Wilson succeeded, probably beyond his wildest dreams, in setting off a political firestorm.

In response, the White House, no doubt hoping to prevent his allegation about the sixteen words from becoming a proxy for the charge that (in Wilson’s latest iteration of it) “lies and disinformation [were] used to justify the invasion of Iraq,” eventually acknowledged that the President’s statement “did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union address.” As might have been expected, however, this panicky response served to make things worse rather than better. And yet it was totally unnecessary—for the maddeningly simple reason that every single one of the sixteen words at issue was true.

That is, British intelligence had assured the CIA that Saddam Hussein had tried to buy enriched uranium from the African country of Niger. Furthermore—and notwithstanding the endlessly repeated assertion that this assurance has now been discredited—Britain’s independent Butler commission concluded that it was “well-founded.” The relevant passage is worth quoting at length:

>
>> a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.
>>
>> b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources
>> indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since
>> uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the
>> intelligence was credible.
>>
>> c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed
>> to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this.


As if that were not enough to settle the matter, Wilson himself, far from challenging the British report when he was “debriefed” on his return from Niger (although challenging it is what he now never stops doing - (6) ), actually strengthened the CIA’s belief in its accuracy. From the Senate Intelligence Committee report:

>
>> He [the CIA reports officer] said he judged that the most important fact in
>> the report [by Wilson] was that Niger officials admitted that the Iraqi
>> delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Niger prime minister
>> believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium.

And again:

>
>> The report on [Wilson’s] trip to Niger . . . did not change any analysts’
>> assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the
>> information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports
>> on the uranium deal.

This passage goes on to note that the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research—which (as we have already seen) did not believe that Saddam Hussein was trying to develop nuclear weapons—found support in Wilson’s report for its “assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.” But if so, this, as the Butler report quoted above points out, would not mean that Iraq had not tried to buy it—which was the only claim made by British intelligence and then by Bush in the famous sixteen words.

The liar here, then, was not Bush but Wilson. And Wilson also lied when he told the Washington Post that he had unmasked as forgeries certain documents given to American intelligence (by whom it is not yet clear) that supposedly contained additional evidence of Saddam’s efforts to buy uranium from Niger. The documents did indeed turn out to be forgeries; but, according to the Butler report,

>
>> [t]he forged documents were not available to the British government at the
>> time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not
>> undermine [that assessment]. (7)

More damning yet to Wilson, the Senate Intelligence Committee discovered that he had never laid eyes on the documents in question:

>
>> [Wilson] also told committee staff that he was the source of a Washington
>> Post article . . . which said, “among the envoy’s conclusions was that the
>> documents may have been forged because ‘the dates were wrong and the names
>> were wrong.’” Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have
>> come to the conclusion that the “dates were wrong and the names were wrong”
>> when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names
>> and dates were in the reports.

To top all this off, just as Cheney had nothing to do with the choice of Wilson for the mission to Niger, neither was it true that, as Wilson “confirmed” for a credulous New Republic reporter, “the CIA circulated [his] report to the Vice President’s office,” thereby supposedly proving that Cheney and his staff “knew the Niger story was a flatout lie.” Yet—the mind reels—if Cheney had actually been briefed on Wilson’s oral report to the CIA (which he was not), he would, like the CIA itself, have been more inclined to believe that Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger.

So much for the author of the best-selling and much acclaimed book whose title alone — The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife’s CIA Identity—has set a new record for chutzpah.

But there is worse. In his press conference on the indictment against Libby, Patrick Fitzgerald insisted that lying to federal investigators is a serious crime both because it is itself against the law and because, by sending them on endless wild-goose chases, it constitutes the even more serious crime of obstruction of justice. By those standards, Wilson—who has repeatedly made false statements about every aspect of his mission to Niger, including whose idea it was to send him and what he told the CIA upon his return; who was then shown up by the Senate Intelligence Committee as having lied about the forged documents; and whose mendacity has sent the whole country into a wild-goose chase after allegations that, the more they are refuted, the more they keep being repeated—is himself an excellent candidate for criminal prosecution.

And so long as we are hunting for liars in this area, let me suggest that we begin with the Democrats now proclaiming that they were duped, and that we then broaden out to all those who in their desperation to delegitimize the larger policy being tested in Iraq—the policy of making the Middle East safe for America by making it safe for democracy—have consistently used distortion, misrepresentation, and selective perception to vilify as immoral a bold and noble enterprise and to brand as an ignominious defeat what is proving itself more and more every day to be a victory of American arms and a vindication of American ideals.


—November 7, 2005


NORMAN PODHORETZ is the editor-at-large of COMMENTARY and the author of ten books. The most recent, The Norman Podhoretz Reader (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743236610/102-8206653-3261763), edited by Thomas L. Jeffers, appeared in 2004. His essays on the Bush Doctrine and Iraq, including “World War IV: How It Started, What It Means, and Why We Have to Win” (September 2004) and “The War Against World War IV” (February 2005), can be found by here : http://www.commentarymagazine.com/archive/digitalarchive.aspx?st=advanced&By=Norman%20Podhoretz <http://www.commentarymagazine.com/archive/digitalarchive.aspx?st=advanced&By=Norman%20Podhoretz>


ENDNOTES :

1 Hard as it is to believe, let alone to reconcile with his general position, Joseph C. Wilson, IV, in a speech he delivered three months after the invasion at the Education for Peace in Iraq Center, offhandedly made the following remark: “I remain of the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that indicates that Saddam’s regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons.”

2 Fuller versions of these and similar statements can be found at http://www.theconversationcafe.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3134.htmland. Another source is http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php.

3 These and numerous other such quotations were assembled by Robert Kagan in a piece published in the Washington Post on October 25, 2005.

4 Whereas both John Edwards, later to become John Kerry’s running mate in 2004, and Jay Rockefeller, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, actually did use the word in describing the threat posed by Saddam.

5 In early November, the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who last year gave their unanimous assent to its report, were suddenly mounting a last-ditch effort to take it back on this issue (and others). But to judge from the material they had already begun leaking by November 7, when this article was going to press, the newest “Bush lied” case is as empty and dishonest as the one they themselves previously rejected.

6 Here is how he put it in a piece in the Los Angeles Times written in late October of this year to celebrate the indictment of Libby: “I knew that the statement in Bush’s speech . . . was not true. I knew it was false from my own investigative trip to Africa. . . . And I knew that the White House knew it.”

7 More extensive citations of the relevant passages from the Butler report can be found in postings by Daniel McKivergan at www.worldwidestandard.com I have also drawn throughout on materials cited by the invaluable Stephen F. Hayes in the Weekly Standard.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 09:23 pm
Anyone have a fly swatter?
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Nov, 2005 09:40 pm
The Podhoretz article is good. You should read it.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 01:15 am
Ticomaya wrote:
The Podhoretz article is good. You should read it.


The neo-con worm wriggles on the hook of truth, but it cannot escape, and eventually it shrivels and dies.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 01:21 am
Use of phosphorus weapons in Iraq: Guardian today

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1643680,00.html
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 01:52 am
Ticomaya wrote:
The Podhoretz article is good. You should read it.


Here are two questions that Americans could ask...

"Who did the President snow
..and when did they know it?"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Just to keep the facts straight:

DECODING MR. BUSH'S DENIALS
Published: November 15, 2005, NY Times

To avoid having to account for his administration's
misleading statements before the war with Iraq,
President Bush has tried denial, saying he did not
skew the intelligence. He's tried to share the blame,
claiming that Congress had the same intelligence he
had, as well as President Bill Clinton. He's tried to
pass the buck and blame the C.I.A. Lately, he's gone
on the attack, accusing Democrats in Congress of
aiding the terrorists.

Yesterday in Alaska, Mr. Bush trotted out the same
tedious deflection on Iraq that he usually attempts
when his back is against the wall: he claims that
questioning his actions three years ago is a betrayal
of the troops in battle today.

It all amounts to one energetic effort at avoidance.
But like the W.M.D. reports that started the whole
thing, the only problem is that none of it has been
true.

Mr. Bush says everyone had the same intelligence he
had - Mr. Clinton and his advisers, foreign
governments, and members of Congress - and that all of
them reached the same conclusions. The only part that
is true is that Mr. Bush was working off the same
intelligence Mr. Clinton had. But that is scary, not
reassuring. The reports about Saddam Hussein's weapons
were old, some more than 10 years old. Nothing was
fresher than about five years, except reports that
later proved to be fanciful.

Foreign intelligence services did not have full access
to American intelligence. But some had dissenting
opinions that were ignored or not shown to top
American officials. Congress had nothing close to the
president's access to intelligence. The National
Intelligence Estimate presented to Congress a few days
before the vote on war was sanitized to remove dissent
and make conjecture seem like fact.

It's hard to imagine what Mr. Bush means when he says
everyone reached the same conclusion. There was indeed
a widespread belief that Iraq had chemical and
biological weapons. But Mr. Clinton looked at the data
and concluded that inspections and pressure were
working - a view we now know was accurate. France,
Russia and Germany said war was not justified. Even
Britain admitted later that there had been no new
evidence about Iraq, just new politics.

The administration had little company in saying that
Iraq was actively trying to build a nuclear weapon.
The evidence for this claim was a dubious report about
an attempt in 1999 to buy uranium from Niger, later
shown to be false, and the infamous aluminum tubes
story. That was dismissed at the time by analysts with
real expertise.

The Bush administration was also alone in making the
absurd claim that Iraq was in league with Al Qaeda and
somehow connected to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. That
was based on two false tales. One was the supposed
trip to Prague by Mohamed Atta, a report that was
disputed before the war and came from an unreliable
drunk. The other was that Iraq trained Qaeda members
in the use of chemical and biological weapons. Before
the war, the Defense Intelligence Agency concluded
that this was a deliberate fabrication by an informer.


Mr. Bush has said in recent days that the first phase
of the Senate Intelligence Committee's investigation
on Iraq found no evidence of political pressure to
change the intelligence. That is true only in the very
narrow way the Republicans on the committee insisted
on defining pressure: as direct pressure from senior
officials to change intelligence. Instead, the Bush
administration made what it wanted to hear crystal
clear and kept sending reports back to be redone until
it got those answers.

Richard Kerr, a former deputy director of central
intelligence, said in 2003 that there was "significant
pressure on the intelligence community to find
evidence that supported a connection" between Iraq and
Al Qaeda. The C.I.A. ombudsman told the Senate
Intelligence Committee that the administration's
"hammering" on Iraq intelligence was harder than he
had seen in his 32 years at the agency.

Mr. Bush and other administration officials say they
faithfully reported what they had read. But Vice
President Dick Cheney presented the Prague meeting as
a fact when even the most supportive analysts
considered it highly dubious. The administration has
still not acknowledged that tales of Iraq coaching Al
Qaeda on chemical warfare were considered false, even
at the time they were circulated.

Mr. Cheney was not alone. Remember Condoleezza Rice's
infamous "mushroom cloud" comment? And Secretary of
State Colin Powell in January 2003, when the rich and
powerful met in Davos, Switzerland, and he said, "Why
is Iraq still trying to procure uranium and the
special equipment needed to transform it into material
for nuclear weapons?" Mr. Powell ought to have known
the report on "special equipment"' - the aluminum
tubes - was false. And the uranium story was four
years old.

The president and his top advisers may very well have
sincerely believed that Iraq had weapons of mass
destruction. But they did not allow the American
people, or even Congress, to have the information
necessary to make reasoned judgments of their own.
It's obvious that the Bush administration misled
Americans about Mr. Hussein's weapons and his
terrorist connections. We need to know how that
happened and why.

Mr. Bush said last Friday that he welcomed debate,
even in a time of war, but that "it is deeply
irresponsible to rewrite the history of how that war
began." We agree, but it is Mr. Bush and his team who
are rewriting history.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/15/opinion/15tue1.html?ex=1132808400&en=75e6d6e780d7c613&ei=5070




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 04:12 am
McTag wrote:
... Soldiers say, we shake 'em and bake 'em. In other words, use high explosives followed by incendiary devices against dug-in or urban enemy...


How 'bout Daisycutters? Are Daisycutters still on the list of approved devices to be used against dug-in/urban enemies?

Of course, you apologists would want the dug-in's to receive a 48-hour advance notice and/or counseling sessions for the survivors ...
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 06:47 am
It's a small point in the context of an illegal and immoral war, and the consequent deaths of tens of thousands of non-combatants, but I think if it's illegal to use Napalm and allied substances in warfare then the military should not lie and try to cover up what they are doing.

Correction to former post: the term "shake and bake", which seems to be the jargon term for current practice, according to the paper today describes the technique of using incendiaries (in this case, WP) to flush out enemy and then killing them with high explosives, when the high explosives were not at first successful by themselves. But I imagine the resourceful artilleryman could decide to do it the other way round.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 07:32 am
Another small point now that the term "war crime" has been loosely bandied about ... I heard this morning (on NPR, BTW, not FOX) that the use of white phosphorous is not illegal. Not pretty, but not illegal either.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 07:37 am
Wouldn't they have had to give advance warning in order to let the women and children escape the city before the military assault began? In any case, it didn't seem to have worked too well. Women and Children were wounded and died right along with the insurgents.

http://www2.iraqbodycount.org/resources/falluja/ibc_falluja_apr_10.php

Quote:
There were too many dead and wounded for hospital workers in the besieged town to deal with. Outside a hastily erected field hospital, Reuters television footage shows corpses lying in the street, wrapped in bloodstained white sheets.

The dead include small children, women and old men, a new born baby. Beside the corpses, there is a pile of body parts which no one has had time to deal with.




Quote:
An assessment by five international non-governmental organisations on Friday said 470 people had been killed in Falluja. Of 1,200 injured, it said 243 were women and 200 children. The groups said their estimate may be conservative.



Quote:
Wounded children lie in a makeshift hospital in Falluja, bandaged and bloodied from fighting between U.S. forces and Sunni guerrillas that has raged through the town's alleyways for days.


Quote:
On Saturday, the U.S. offered a bilateral ceasefire, but again the fighting continued. Marines say they are only firing back when under attack and do not target women and children, but wounded civilians still fill the limited hospital beds


This is why I hate war and don't understand why people would not want to go to war as a last resort. I don't care what anybody says, the Iraq war was not a last resort.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 08:30 am
Then there are the bombs that keep on bombing....... that's right ...... cluster bombs with those unexploded bomblets that kids love to find and will be finding for years to come.
0 Replies
 
WhoodaThunk
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 09:45 am
revel wrote:
This is why I hate war and don't understand why people would not want to go to war as a last resort. I don't care what anybody says, the Iraq war was not a last resort.


Again, war is hell, but how long would have been long enough while Saddam played his shell games with the UN inspectors? If you have no WMD, why not be forthright and prove you no longer have them?

And aren't the nuclear talks with Iran going smashingly? Do any of these people understand anything but brute force? What will the last resort be here? Will Iran actually attempt to wipe Israel from the map? How long should civilized nations appease in the name of civility?

Sorry. I don't buy the warm, fuzzy scenarios of what-might-have-been-if-only.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 10:22 am
WhoodaThunk wrote:
Another small point now that the term "war crime" has been loosely bandied about ... I heard this morning (on NPR, BTW, not FOX) that the use of white phosphorous is not illegal. Not pretty, but not illegal either.


I think this is incorrect.

If phosphorus shells were fired over a town, and they were, and all of the inhabitants were not absent, which they were not although some had fled) then its use certainly was illegal.

Many were burned, many were killed. Whether this was by Napalm (illegal) or WP-based ordnance (illegal to use in this way) make no difference. The result was the same.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 10:39 am
Isn't it typical for some to think we should be considerate and ask the women and children to leave before any military action? The very women and children the terrorists control and are using as shields so they can fire on coalition troops with impunity?

I think un-fuzzy thinking knows that the goal should be victory, decisive, total, and unconditional, so that women and children will no longer be subjected to being shields for terrorist activities.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 10:48 am
WhoodaThunk wrote:
If you have no WMD, why not be forthright and prove you no longer have them?
Typical bit of whoodathunking. How do you prove a negative?
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Nov, 2005 10:52 am
BBB
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
WhoodaThunk wrote:
If you have no WMD, why not be forthright and prove you no longer have them?
Typical bit of whoodathunking. How do you prove a negative?


Saddam wanted the world to think he had WMDs to protect him from Iran and Israel attack. He was so good at pretending to have them, he convinced those who wanted to be convinced and held off those who were not sure.

BBB
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 05/17/2025 at 10:00:29