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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:40 am
A link to an interview with Meyer and the first report about his damning judgment was already posted on this thread earlier here
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 02:43 am
Frontpage of one of the British papers as of today:

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8853/clipboard15tv.jpg
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 02:55 am
http://img467.imageshack.us/img467/4923/clipboard44vp.jpg


Quote:
07/11/05 - Daily Mail

Blair 'could have delayed Iraq war'

Tony Blair repeatedly failed to use his influence with President George Bush to halt the rush to war with Iraq, Britain's former ambassador to Washington said.

Sir Christopher Meyer said that Mr Blair could have been in a position to secure a delay to the conflict and help plan for post-war Iraq, avoiding much of the violence now besetting the country.

But in his book, DC Confidential - serialised in The Guardian and the Daily Mail - he said that the Prime Minister and his entourage had been "seduced" by the "glamour" of US power and refused to take tough negotiating positions.

Sir Christopher - who actually supported the war - nevertheless concluded that the verdict of history was likely to be that it was "terminally flawed both in conception and execution".

He said that although Mr Blair had been told that as far as the Bush administration was concerned, Britain was "the only ally that mattered", he was unwilling to use the leverage that gave him.

"London was not fertile ground for the notion of leverage or the tough negotiating position that must sometimes be taken even with the closest allies - as Churchill did with Roosevelt and Thatcher did with Reagan," he wrote.

He said that he doubted that Mr Blair had ever had a "plain-speaking conversation" with Mr Bush, in which he made clear that he would only support war if British wishes were met.

"We may have have been the junior partner in the enterprise but the ace up our sleeve was that America did not want to go it alone. Had Britain so insisted, Iraq after Saddam might have avoided the violence that may yet prove fatal to the entire enterprise," he wrote.

However, Sir Christopher said that Mr Blair appeared to have no appetite for the hard bargaining that was necessary. "Tony Blair chose to take his stand against Saddam and alongside President Bush from the highest of high moral ground. It is the definitive riposte to Blair the Poodle, seduced though he and his team always appeared to be by the proximity and glamour of American power," Sir Christopher wrote.

"But the high moral ground, and the pure white flame of unconditional support to an ally in service of an idea, have their disadvantages. They place your destiny in the hands of an ally. They fly above the tangled history of Sunni, Shia, Kurd, Turkomen and Assyrian. They discourage descent into the dull detail of tough and necessary bargaining: meat and drink to Thatcher but, so it seemed, uncongenial to Tony Blair."
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:39 am
I've read the extract it is pretty damning.

It seems Blair had enormous influence in Washington and could have insisted on war but with and only with conditions

ie middle east peace deal
proper planning for iraq post saddam.

Rumsfeld may have been dismissive of British military contribution, but the fact is Bush did not want to go it alone. We could have and should have insisted that Bush listened to us and acted upon what we said. But we never bothered...Blair isn't a detail man like Thatcher. But he has cojones, like Mrs Thatcher.

For me Meyers most damning comment is this

"We may have been the junior partner in the enterprise but the ace up our sleeve was that America did not want to go it alone. Had Britain so insisted, Iraq after Saddam might have avoided the violence that may yet prove fatal to the entire enterprise"
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 09:20 am
Quote:
The Wrap: A worm's eye view

Monday November 7, 2005


Andrew Brown wonders whether the fourth world war is already underway


I know exactly the moment when I decided that the Iraq war would be a disaster. I was travelling down to a demonstration against it in September 2002, very troubled in mind. It's in the nature of wars that they pitch you together with allies you would rather not have and I couldn't sign up to either of the main strands of piety that motivated my fellow demonstrators - the leftist and pacifist one that said wars are always wrong and solve nothing; and the Muslim one which held that wars against Muslims are always wrong (but was enthusiastic about fighting Israel and possibly America).

But on the train down to the demo I read a long essay from Commentary by the neocon intellectual Norman Podhoretz, which concluded with an optimism so demented that I realised the project must end in disaster: "By every measure we possess, very large numbers of people in the Muslim world sympathise with Osama bin Laden and would vote for radical Islamic candidates of his stripe if they were given the chance.

"To dismiss this possibility would be the height of naivete. Nevertheless, there is a policy that can head it off, provided that the United States has the will to fight World War IV - the war against militant Islam - to a successful conclusion, and provided, too, that we then have the stomach to impose a new political culture on the defeated parties. This is what we did directly and unapologetically in Germany and Japan after winning World War II; it is what we have indirectly striven with some success to help achieve in the former Communist countries since winning World War III; and it is George W Bush's ultimate aim in World War IV."

This was essentially a call for the armed occupation of every Muslim country whose government was repugnant to New York intellectuals - Iran, Syria, Saudi, Egypt and Libya were all mentioned as candidates for treatment after Iraq had been triumphantly occupied and converted to a democracy. Given this was an impossibly hubristic end, it was clear that we shouldn't set off in that direction.

The term "World War IV" seemed integral to this hubristic world view, so it was rather a surprise to find it used in all seriousness last week by a formidable opponent of the hubris of the Iraq war, Andrew Bacevich.

Professor Bacevich is a former army colonel and lecturer at West Point, a Vietnam veteran and an old-fashioned conservative. He calls the war in Iraq "preposterous". His most recent book, "The New American Militarism", is a first-rate piece of history which sets out to explain how a powerful and well-respected army came to seem the solution to almost all America's problems after the Vietnam war. This conviction grew in different groups for different reasons. No overarching conspiracy was required or existed. But the army itself, the evangelical Christians, the neocons, and the Republican party all had their own reasons for supposing that military power would restore America, and none of them really foresaw where it would all end.

This is a sane and powerful analysis, even if his belief that the country can return to its founding principles - as he understands them - and renew itself without militarism looks optimistic from here. Historically, the countries that have renounced a belief in their own military prowess have not done so out of the goodness of their hearts, and Bacevich believes in the goodness of the American heart.

Yet this sane and optimistic person believes that his country is already fighting World War IV, and what's really interesting is that he thinks Jimmy Carter started it, right back in 1979. Carter never planned to do this, of course. He was forced into it when the American electorate recoiled from what he wanted to do, which was to respond to turbulence in the Middle East by saving oil. "There is simply no way to avoid sacrifice", he said. He urged his people to "lower thermostats, observe the speed limit, use carpools, and park their cars one extra day a week."

With hindsight, this illuminates Carer's priggish goodness as a man and his failure as a politician to gauge the mood of the nation. His speech gave Reagan an opening, the Reagan who, Bacevich says, "Assured Americans not only that compromising their lifestyle was unnecessary but that the prospects for economic expansion were limitless and could be had without moral complications or great cost. This, rather than nagging about shallow materialism, was what Americans wanted to hear."

When Carter made his appeal, America was importing about 43% of the oil it needed. Now the figure is 56%. The distinction between armchair and professional warriors surely lies in the fact that armchair warriors believe that there are wars that can be fought without sacrifice. But that figure of 56% doesn't represent a sacrifice avoided, only a sacrifice postponed. If World War IV is under way, the prognosis for our side is not very good.

* Andrew Brown maintains a weblog, the Helmintholog.


The Wrap is one of Guardian Unlimited's paid-for services. If you were forwarded this email and would like to subscribe, go to
http://www.guardian.co.uk/wrap
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 10:31 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Wasn't it the Brits who first came up with the Niger yellowcake stuff? Who was misleading who when you get right down to it? Or is it possible that both were working from the best information available?


No, Italians.

And now, Italian media reports have accused General Pollari of working with a group of American neoconservatives to make sure the now discredited "Niger connection" made its way to the highest levels of the Bush administration.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:02 pm
About Blair,

I watched a movie once, you may have hear of it, Love Actually? It was about a Prime Minister in love with someone on his staff. Anyway in the movie there was a scene in it where the Prime Minister basically told the US president to go blow. I have the feeling most Brits are really disappointed in Blair about the whole thing and are trying to find answers to say the least.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:32 pm
and Jonathan Powell apparantly told Meyer that as UK ambassador his job was to get stuck up the Administrations ***hole and stay there. Cant remember if they made a movie about that or not.

(apologies for distasteful reference, only quoting from prime ministers press conference this morning)
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 12:59 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051107/ts_nm/iraq_usa_chalabi_dc

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Iraqi politician most associated with the discredited prewar intelligence that has the Bush presidency in turmoil visits Washington this week as he maneuvers for advantage before Iraq's December 15 elections.


I can't understand how this guy manages to hang on to power in Iraq.
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 01:11 pm
correcting BBB's boo boo
I must correct a boo boo in my above post. It was Admiral John Poindexter, not Fitzwater, that was involved with Oliver North in the Iran-Contra scandal. George H.W. Bush pardoned those involved in the scandal: Casper Weinberger, Duane R. Clarridge, Clair E. George, Robert C. McFarlane, Elliott Abrams, and Alan G. Fiers Jr., all of whom had been indicted and/or convicted of charges by the Independent Counsel.

---BBB


Undisputed factual articles, such as the following published in 2003, have been published and posted on A2K since the war in Iraq began. But the Bush supporters continue to post republican party talking points that are outright fables (read that lies).

The Bush administration continues to try to shift intelligence failure blame to the CIA when, in fact, it was the "intelligence" solicited and collected by Vice President Cheney via his now-defunct Office of Special Plans (OSP) that was the real culprit. Cheney had Feith set up the OSP to create his own intelligence office to be independent from the CIA. It was the corruption of the OSP and it's participants that "misled" the Congress, other countries, some of the Media, and the American people. That's why the CIA is so angry at the Bush administration. Bush is trying to make the CIA the scapegoat when the blame should be placed at the door of the president and vice president.

The Congress should have learned it's lesson from the "off the wall" U.S. government established by Admiral Fitzwater and Marine Oliver North that was the basis of the Iran-Contra scandal. Their actions were a violation of the Constitution and US Law and nearly brought down the Reagan presidency.

Trust is the coin of the land. The Bush administration is bankrupt.

---BBB
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BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 01:27 pm
Did Poppy bush buy Tony Blair's Iraq war support?
An interesting reason Tony Blair could have gone along with Bush's blatant lies about Iraq is that Bush promised him a job at the Carlyle Group. Bear in mind that most of the group's investments are in defense contractors. That infers that Blair will personally benefit from his decision as Prime Minister to go to war. Just as George Bush will benefit personally from his excellent war adventures when he inherits from his father, who is a member of the Carlyle Group. Corruption just isn't a strong enough word any more.

Sunday Mirror, U.K.
Exclusive By Rupert Hamer

IS BLAIR OFF TO JOIN $30BN WORLD ELITE? HE'S EYEING UP £250K JOB WITH ARMS TRADE LINK FIRM.

TONY Blair is expected to join one of the most exclusive groups of businessmen in the world after he leaves Downing Street.

The PM is being lined up for a highly lucrative position with the Carlyle Group - an American-based investment giant with strong links to the White House and the defence industry.

The firm has been nicknamed "The Ex-Presidents Club" because it has had a host of former world leaders on its books including George Bush Senior, his former secretary of state James Baker and former British PM John Major. There a also a large number of former US Army top brass.

Mr Blair has been keeping quiet about his plans after his departure from Number 10 - which could be as early as 2007 according to some Labour insiders.

But sources in the City have revealed that he is "seriously considering" a high-profile role with Carlyle - which manages $30billion (£20million) of investments worldwide.

The job could net Mr Blair up to £500,000 a year for only a few days work a month giving speeches and making "networking" trips on behalf of the company.

The move comes after it emerged that the premier's financial affairs are in an increasingly perilous state…
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 02:51 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
I'd thaught, the United Kingdom invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq as well.
But thanks for clarifying that, ican.
Surprised
I thought, Walter, you in particular would understand that when one mentions X country did Y, that does not imply that one means no other country also did Y.

Hmmmm ... now that may explain why ... oh, never mind!
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ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 03:10 pm
We have one independent, valid and sufficient justification for the invasion of Iraq by the USA. I think it obvious that the validity of this one reason is not reduced by the lack of validity of any other reason or reasons claimed for the invasion of Iraq by the USA, regardless of the number of such reasons.

The USA invaded Afghanistan October 2001 when the then Afghanistan government ignored USA government requests and would not stop harboring (i.e., allowing) al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, because that harboring is a threat to our way of life. The USA invaded and destroyed the al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, and began the process of replacing the then Afghanistan government with a democratic government in order to reduce the probability that al Qaeda would return and re-establish its training camps when the USA left Afghanistan.

The USA invaded Iraq March 2003 when the then Iraq government ignored USA government requests and would not stop harboring (i.e., allowing) al Qaeda training camps in Iraq because that harboring is a threat to our way of life. The USA invaded and destroyed the al Qaeda training camps in Iraq, and began the process of replacing the then Iraq government with a democratic government in order to reduce the probability that al Qaeda would return and re-establish its training camps when the USA left Iraq.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Nov, 2005 05:15 pm
Quote:
The USA invaded Iraq March 2003 when the then Iraq government ignored USA government requests and would not stop harboring (i.e., allowing) al Qaeda training camps in Iraq because that harboring is a threat to our way of life.


If that was the reason the US invaded Iraq, why wasn't that on the ever changing list of reasons cited by Bush to justify the invasion?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:01 am
I really don't want this story to be true...

Quote:

US forces 'used chemical weapons' during assault on city of Fallujah
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article325560.ece
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:04 am
God if it is I wonder who will put us on trial?
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:09 am
Terrible story, blatham.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:10 am
quote

interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which (provide) graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon.

......................

nothing surprises me.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:13 am
Kara, if you don't already know, Ican makes it up as he goes along. I would advise you not to waste your time on him, but it's your party.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Nov, 2005 07:14 am
Well, it might not be an accurate accounting. If it is, that will come out and quite quickly I think. It is difficult to imagine a Pentagon so completely devoid of sensitivity to world opinion, not to mention American citizen opinion (it being easy enough to imagine them devoid of that other relevant factor - empathy for living things). Let's just set it on the backburner for now.
0 Replies
 
 

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