US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

I doubt very much the killing will slow down. October 15 is an important date for the insurgents; they're going to show their displeasure by killing more people.

America the Unpopular
By DAVID IGNATIUS
The Washington Post
September 23, 2005

CAIRO -- For a people who want to be loved as much as Americans do, these are trying times. People around the world see America's troubles in Iraq and say we had it coming. They hear Americans talk about Arab democracy and think we're trying to steal their oil. Some even take a kind of perverse satisfaction when they see us battered by hurricanes.

Other great nations through history have done a better job of being disliked. The British during their days of empire treated the rest of the world with a cool imperial disdain. The French under Charles de Gaulle regarded haughtiness as a national virtue. The Russians were brutally indifferent, the Chinese politely so. All these powers in their moments of greatness treated the rest of the world as quasi-barbarians. If they were hated in return, so what?

Indifference is not an American trait. Part of the Benjamin Franklin heritage of industry and self-improvement is that Americans want to be admired, applauded -- and yes, loved. When we discover that we are in fact deeply unpopular in many parts of the world, we think we must have a communications problem. So the call goes out for Karen Hughes and the public diplomacy specialists.

I've had a lesson in our unpopularity in Egypt, where I've been hearing anti-American broadsides from activists who should be thanking the Bush administration for its pro-democracy stance. These are people who, but for the administration's pressure over the last few years on Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, might well be in prison. But do they appreciate Bush's help? Not on your life.

Take the pro-democracy speech here in June by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. She told an audience at the American University in Cairo that the administration was breaking with a 60-year policy that "pursued stability at the expense of democracy," and choosing instead to support democratic activists even when they challenged pro-U.S. rulers such as Mubarak. But the Egyptians remained dubious, to put it mildly.

"The United States doesn't want freedom for Arab people," insisted Ali Abdel Fatah, a leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. When I asked him about Ms. Rice's speech, he said America wanted democracy only as an "artistic decoration," because truly free elections would threaten Israeli and American interests. A similar sentiment was expressed by Amin Soliman Eskander, a cofounder of the pro-democracy group, Kifaya. "I don't find U.S. policies credible," he said when I asked him about Ms. Rice's speech. As for American help, he said no thanks. "If the U.S. supported Kifaya, we would lose credibility on the Egyptian street."

The Bush administration might do better in this part of the world if it accepted its unpopularity. Especially in Iraq. Most Iraqis were profoundly grateful that America toppled Saddam Hussein in April 2003, but that doesn't mean they like being occupied. The average Iraqi experiences U.S. occupation as a daily humiliation.

The potency of this anti-Americanism means that the U.S. can't solve problems in Iraq by sending in more troops. A bigger U.S. footprint would only increase Iraqi anger and fuel the insurgency. In contrast, fewer American troops may actually make it easier to stabilize the country, if the U.S. can help the Iraqis create a strong military and government of their own. America may be having trouble defeating Abu Musab Zarqawi, but the Iraqis won't. The moment they forge a real national government, Zarqawi is a dead man.

Realists are always quoting Machiavelli's admonition that it is better to be feared than loved, but that advice never seems to resonate very well with American presidents. They want to be feared and loved. Perhaps under our system, politicians become addicted to love. But in a world where the U.S. is the only superpower, the reality is that it will be unpopular. Nobody is going to root for Goliath -- even a nice, democratic Goliath.

Once Americans learn to accept our unlovableness, it may be easier to craft a foreign policy that puts America's interests first, and makes the country as secure and prosperous as possible. We will never convince the rest of the world that we aren't doing that anyway, no matter what we say.

ican, I didn't bother to read your entire post, but here's the reality. Thousands demonstrated against this war in Iraq this past weekend all across the US, Washington DC, and London, and only about 400 showed up to support this war. Most polls show that the majority of Americans are now against this war - and the president's handling of it.

Don't let the TOMNOM reporting of the polls fool you.

A majority of Americans are against the way the President is handling the war.

A majority of Americans are against the US pulling out of Iraq before the Iraqis ask us to.

A majority of Americans did not "demonstrate against this war in Iraq this past weekend all across the US, Washington DC."

I am a member of all three majorities.

The police arrested Ms Sheehan while demonstrating "peaceably" in Washington DC on some stupid charges.

Rumor has it that the actual charge against Cindy is that she was being stupid. Annoying, yes, but admittedly no crime there.

Your president is getting desperate, and his last public statement was done in front of a row of the American flag. Images are no longer working for this idiot, and his performance rating continue to plummet. You're gonna be pretty lonely in a few more months supporting a dumb cowboy from Texas.

I think not! I think it is you who is getting desperate.

First, Bush is not a dumb cowboy from Texas.

Second, Bush is clearly smarter than you and all the current Democrat leadership put together; I thereby have "damned him with faint praise."

Third, All of us individualists are immune to loneliness. That's why we solve problems first and seek validation second.

Fourth, you behave like a crowded and cowed collectivist, but you're no cowboy.

Fifth, we shall not fail in Iraq.

"we and the Iraqi people must show our displeasure by exterminating more insurgents (i.e., malignancy) by October 14"

give it a rest Ican.
The truth rubs you the wrong way, does it?

the (bold italics) malignancy are almost all Iraqis

Bunk!
A significant percentage are Iraqis, but a larger percentage are infiltrators from other ME countries. The US military is increasing its rate of extermination of those infiltrating malignancy along Iraq's borders.

You dont understand. The Iraqi people want USUK to **CK off out of their country.

So you actually believe the Iraqi people believe malignancy would stop murdering Iraqi civilians almost daily if the Iraqi people could get "USUK to **CK off out of their country."

If that nonsense were true, all the malignancy need do is stop its mass murder of Iraqi civilians. Then the Iraqi government would quickly and happily ask the US to leave. We'd be outathere post haste without taking so much as a quart of oil with us.

Only 4 to 10 percent of the country's combatants are foreign fighters, according to a report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies released last week.

As I was saying, the Iraqi people just want American and British troops out of their country. This whole adventure has been an unmitigated disaster, the scale of which will not become apparant to the bulk of the American people until George Bush declares victory and quits.

this from the christian science monitor today:

Quote:

Only 4 to 10 percent of the country's combatants are foreign fighters, according to a report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies released last week.

christiansciencemonitor.com

the artical makes mention of the number of foreign fighters as being 3000.

"The fact that there are 3,000 foreign fighters in Iraq is cause for alarm, particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war,'' write coauthors Anthony Cordesman, a former director of defense intelligence assessment for the secretary of Defense, and Nawaf Obaid, a Saudi national and security analyst. Based mostly on Saudi intelligence, they estimate that active members of the insurgency number about 30,000.

The fact that there are 3,000 foreign fighters in Iraq is cause for alarm, particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war
...
Based mostly on Saudi intelligence, they estimate that active members of the insurgency number about 30,000.

As I was saying, the Iraqi people just want American and British troops out of their country. This whole adventure has been an unmitigated disaster, the scale of which will not become apparant to the bulk of the American people until George Bush declares victory and quits.

You seem incapable and/or unwilling to comprehend the probable horrific consequences of our leaving before the Iraqi people ask us to leave.

To more quickly stop the slaughter of Iraqis by malignancy, malignancy must be incinerated.

the problem is that the number given for foreigns is 3000.

the 3000 is said to be somewhere between 4% to 10% of the total insurgency.

the saudis say 30,000. and of course 3000 would be 10%.

but if it really is closer to the 4% they mention, the total insurgency falls around 75,000.

big difference.

if you watch what's going on, the military has routinely said that foreigners are not the real force, it's the iraqis. it's the admin boys that keep making the insurgency out to be all about foreign influence.

speaking of which, there was a report that talibane made a special trip, while visiting the new iranian government, to the burial place of khomeini whereupon he laid flowers on the grave.

The fact that there are 3,000 foreign fighters in Iraq is cause for alarm, particularly because they play so large a role in the most violent bombings and in the efforts to provoke a major and intense civil war

if you watch what's going on, the military has routinely said that foreigners are not the real force, it's the iraqis. it's the admin boys that keep making the insurgency out to be all about foreign influence.

... how long do you propose keeping american troops, soon to be all that's left of the coalition, in iraq ?

1 year ? 2 years? 5 years ? is 10 too many or just about right ?

20 years ?

TOMNOM