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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 01:16 pm
Some British set on fire today, inside an armoured vehicle, by an Iraqi crowd.
Two British servicemen, operating in disguise, under arrest by Iraqi forces.
Big diplomatic incident.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 01:36 pm
"the war is being fought outside the united states"

what an observant man is that fried man.

but not as fried as the two Brits inside those Warrior APVs.

Ican is there nothing left for you to do than post facile propaganda from the ACFR?

We no sorry YOU lost this ****ing debacle in Iraq 18 months ago.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 01:59 pm
McTag wrote:
Some British set on fire today, inside an armoured vehicle, by an Iraqi crowd.
Two British servicemen, operating in disguise, under arrest by Iraqi forces.
Big diplomatic incident.


Quote:
Tanks crash into Basra jail to free troops
19/09/2005 - 20:10:21

British forces using tanks broke down the walls of the central jail in the southern city of Basra tonight and freed two Britons - allegedly undercover commandos - who had been arrested on charges of shooting two Iraqi policemen.

Witnesses said about 150 Iraqi prisoners fled the jail as well.

Violence flared earlier in the day as demonstrators hurled stones and Molotov cocktails at British tanks and at least four people were killed in the major outbreak of violence.

The fighting erupted after British armour encircled the jail where the two Britons were being held.

During the melee one soldier could be seen scrambling for his life from a burning tank and a rock-throwing mob.

Source
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 04:01 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
... Ican is there nothing left for you to do than post facile propaganda from the ACFR?
We no sorry YOU lost this ****ing debacle in Iraq 18 months ago.


Your hypotheses absent examples and/or evidence are duly noted and expected.


Quote:

www.acfr.org/aboutustsf.html

WHAT IS THE AMERICAN COMMITTEES
ON FOREIGN RELATIONS?

In 1995, ACFR was newly incorporated as a nonprofit association dedicated to facilitating debate on international events--primarily as they relate to the formulation and implementation of U.S. foreign policy--between Washington and the heartland(s) of the United States.

In their previous life, the committees were affiliated with the Council on Foreign Relations, which created them in 1938 to the same ends that the new association proposes. At present, ACFR is not affiliated with any other entity, but has productive relations with the broadest range of government officials (both U.S. and foreign) and foreign-affairs related think-tanks and associations in Washington and beyond. ACFR's national office is located at historic DACOR Bacon House, just west of the White House in Washington, D.C.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 04:46 pm
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup (description at: www.acfr.org ) No. 605, Wednesday, September 14, 2005; the author wrote:

On Iraq, Short Memories

By Robert Kagan
Washington Post
Monday, September 12, 2005; Page A19

If you read even respectable journals these days, including this one, you would think that no more than six or seven people ever supported going to war in Iraq. A recent piece in The Post's Style section suggested that the war was an "idea" that President Bush "dusted off" five years after Bill Kristol and I came up with it in the Weekly Standard.

That's not the way I recall it. I recall support for removing Saddam Hussein by force being pretty widespread from the late 1990s through the spring of 2003, among Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives, as well as neoconservatives. We all had the same information, and we got it from the same sources. I certainly had never based my judgment on American intelligence, faulty or otherwise, much less on the intelligence produced by the Bush administration before the war. I don't think anyone else did either. I had formed my impressions during the 1990s entirely on the basis of what I regarded as two fairly reliable sources: the U.N. weapons inspectors, led first by Rolf Ekeus and then by Richard Butler; and senior Clinton administration officials, especially President Bill Clinton, Madeleine Albright, William Cohen and Al Gore.

I recall being particularly affected by the book Butler published in 2000, "The Greatest Threat: Iraq, Weapons of Mass Destruction, and the Growing Crisis of Global Security," in which the chief U.N. inspector, after years of chasing around Iraq, wrote with utter certainty that Hussein had weapons and was engaged in a massive effort to conceal them from the world. "This is Saddam Hussein's regime," Butler wrote: "cruel, lying, intimidating, and determined to retain weapons of mass destruction."

A big turning point for me was the confrontation between Hussein and the Clinton administration that began in 1997 and ended in the bombing of Iraq at the end of 1998. The crisis began when Hussein blocked U.N. inspectors' access to a huge number of suspect sites (I'm still wondering why he did that if he had nothing to hide). The Clinton administration responded by launching a campaign to prepare the nation for war. I remember listening to Albright compare Hussein to Hitler and warn that if not stopped, "he could in fact somehow use his weapons of mass destruction" or "could kind of become the salesman for weapons of mass destruction." I remember Cohen appearing on television with a five-pound bag of sugar and explaining that that amount of anthrax "would destroy at least half the population" of Washington, D.C. Even as late as September 2002, Gore gave a speech insisting that Hussein "has stored away secret supplies of biological weapons and chemical weapons throughout his country."

In his second term Clinton and his top advisers concluded that Hussein's continued rule was dangerous, if not intolerable. Albright called explicitly for his ouster as a precondition for lifting sanctions. And it was in the midst of that big confrontation, in December 1997, that Kristol and I argued what the Clinton administration was already arguing: that containment was no longer an adequate policy for dealing with Saddam Hussein. In January 1998 I joined several others in a letter to the president insisting that "the only acceptable strategy" was one that eliminated "the possibility that Iraq will be able to use or threaten to use weapons of mass destruction." That meant "a willingness to undertake military action" and eventually "removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power." The signatories included Francis Fukuyama, Richard Armitage and Robert Zoellick.

About a year later, the Senate passed a resolution, co-sponsored by Joseph Lieberman and John McCain, providing $100 million for the forcible overthrow of Hussein. It passed with 98 votes. On Sept. 20, 2001, I signed a letter to President Bush in which we endorsed then-Secretary of State Colin Powell's statement that Hussein was "one of the leading terrorists on the face of the Earth." We argued that "any strategy aiming at the eradication of terrorism and its sponsors must include a determined effort to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq." That letter, too, was signed by Fukuyama, Eliot Cohen, Stephen Solarz, Martin Peretz and many others.

I recall broad bipartisan support for removing Hussein right up to the eve of the war. In March 2003, just before the invasion, I signed a letter in support of the war along with a number of former Clinton officials, including deputy national security adviser James Steinberg, ambassador Peter Galbraith, ambassador Dennis Ross, ambassador Martin Indyk, Ivo Daalder, Ronald Asmus and ambassador Robert Gelbard.

I recall a column on this page by my colleague Richard Cohen on March 11, 2003, shortly before the invasion. He argued that "in the run-up to this war, the Bush administration has slipped, stumbled and fallen on its face. It has advanced untenable, unproven arguments. It has oscillated from disarmament to regime change to bringing democracy to the Arab world. It has linked Hussein with al Qaeda when no such link has been established. It has warned of an imminent Iraqi nuclear program when, it seems, that's not the case. And it has managed, in a tour de force of inept diplomacy, to alienate much of the world, including some of our traditional allies."

Despite all that, however, and despite acknowledging that "war is bad -- very, very bad," Cohen argued that it was necessary to go to war anyway. "[S]ometimes peace is no better, especially if all it does is postpone a worse war," and that "is what would happen if the United States now pulled back. . . . Hussein would wait us out. . . . If, at the moment, he does not have nuclear weapons, it's not for lack of trying. He had such a program once and he will have one again -- just as soon as the world loses interest and the pressure on him is relaxed." In the meantime, Cohen wrote, Hussein would "stay in power -- a thug in control of a crucial Middle Eastern nation. He will remain what he is, a despot who runs a criminal regime. He will continue to oppress and murder his own people . . . and resume support of terrorism abroad. He is who he is. He deserves no second chance." I agreed with that judgment then. I still do today.

It's interesting to watch people rewrite history, even their own. My father recently recalled for me a line from Thucydides, which Pericles delivered to the Athenians in the difficult second year of the three-decade war with Sparta. "I am the same man and do not alter, it is you who change, since in fact you took my advice while unhurt, and waited for misfortune to repent of it."

Robert Kagan, a senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and Transatlantic Fellow at the German Marshall Fund, writes a monthly column for The Post. A version of this article appears in the Weekly Standard.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 04:49 pm
President Clinton wrote:
The Iraq Liberation Act
October 31, 1998
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
For Immediate Release
October 31, 1998
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT
Today I am signing into law H.R. 4655, the "Iraq Liberation Act of 1998." This Act makes clear that it is the sense of the Congress that the United States should support those elements of the Iraqi opposition that advocate a very different future for Iraq than the bitter reality of internal repression and external aggression that the current regime in Baghdad now offers.

Let me be clear on what the U.S. objectives are: The United States wants Iraq to rejoin the family of nations as a freedom-loving and law-abiding member. This is in our interest and that of our allies within the region.

The United States favors an Iraq that offers its people freedom at home. I categorically reject arguments that this is unattainable due to Iraq's history or its ethnic or sectarian make-up. Iraqis deserve and desire freedom like everyone else. The United States looks forward to a democratically supported regime that would permit us to enter into a dialogue leading to the reintegration of Iraq into normal international life.

My Administration has pursued, and will continue to pursue, these objectives through active application of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions. The evidence is overwhelming that such changes will not happen under the current Iraq leadership.

In the meantime, while the United States continues to look to the Security Council's efforts to keep the current regime's behavior in check, we look forward to new leadership in Iraq that has the support of the Iraqi people. The United States is providing support to opposition groups from all sectors of the Iraqi community that could lead to a popularly supported government.

On October 21, 1998, I signed into law the Omnibus Consolidated and Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act, 1999, which made $8 million available for assistance to the Iraqi democratic opposition. This assistance is intended to help the democratic opposition unify, work together more effectively, and articulate the aspirations of the Iraqi people for a pluralistic, participa--tory political system that will include all of Iraq's diverse ethnic and religious groups. As required by the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for FY 1998 (Public Law 105-174), the Department of State submitted a report to the Congress on plans to establish a program to support the democratic opposition. My Administration, as required by that statute, has also begun to implement a program to compile information regarding allegations of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes by Iraq's current leaders as a step towards bringing to justice those directly responsible for such acts.

The Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 provides additional, discretionary authorities under which my Administration can act to further the objectives I outlined above. There are, of course, other important elements of U.S. policy. These include the maintenance of U.N. Security Council support efforts to eliminate Iraq's weapons and missile programs and economic sanctions that continue to deny the regime the means to reconstitute those threats to international peace and security. United States support for the Iraqi opposition will be carried out consistent with those policy objectives as well. Similarly, U.S. support must be attuned to what the opposition can effectively make use of as it develops over time. With those observations, I sign H.R. 4655 into law.
WILLIAM J. CLINTON
THE WHITE HOUSE,
October 31, 1998.
www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/libera.htm
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 04:50 pm
the non-partisan, 9/11 Commission wrote:
The Clinton administration was facing the possibility of major combat operations against Iraq. Since 1996, the UN inspections regime had been increasingly obstructed by Saddam Hussein. The United States was threatening to attack unless unfettered inspections could resume. The Clinton administration eventually launched a large-scale set of air strikes against Iraq. Operation Desert Fox, in December 1998. These military commitments became the context in which the Clinton administration had to consider opening another front of military engagement against a new terrorist threat based in Afghanistan.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 07:55 pm
"Your hypotheses absent examples and/or evidence are duly noted and expected."

Altitude 45000 feet ...visibility zero...

Ground control to Major Tom:
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong.
Can you hear me Major Tom?
Can you hear me Major Tom?
Can you hear me Major Tom? Can you ...
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 08:16 pm
One Iraqi's opinion.
Long but enlightening.

Quote:
"Baghdad Burning

... I'll meet you 'round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend...
Saturday, September 17, 2005

Draft Constitution - Part I...
I've been reading and re-reading the Iraqi draft constitution since the beginning of September. I decided to ignore the nagging voice in my head that kept repeating, "A new constitution cannot be legitimate under an occupation!" and also the one that was saying, "It isn't legitimate because the government writing it up isn't legitimate." I put those thoughts away and decided to try to view the whole situation as dispassionately as possible"


Continuation
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 Sep, 2005 10:49 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
McTag wrote:
Some British set on fire today, inside an armoured vehicle, by an Iraqi crowd.
Two British servicemen, operating in disguise, under arrest by Iraqi forces.
Big diplomatic incident.


Quote:
Tanks crash into Basra jail to free troops
19/09/2005 - 20:10:21

British forces using tanks broke down the walls of the central jail in the southern city of Basra tonight and freed two Britons - allegedly undercover commandos - who had been arrested on charges of shooting two Iraqi policemen.

Witnesses said about 150 Iraqi prisoners fled the jail as well.

Violence flared earlier in the day as demonstrators hurled stones and Molotov cocktails at British tanks and at least four people were killed in the major outbreak of violence.

The fighting erupted after British armour encircled the jail where the two Britons were being held.

During the melee one soldier could be seen scrambling for his life from a burning tank and a rock-throwing mob.

Source


BBC story plus video

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4262336.stm
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 05:45 am
Is the Iraqi government a farce or what? How can the British just take it up on themselves and free their own people who have been put in Jail for allegedly shooting Iraqi policemen? I thought we turned the country over to the Iraqis.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 06:07 am
It's a bit of a mix-up, isn't it?
British SAS men try to shoot their way out of a road block, are captured by Iraqi police who then turn them over to the mad muslim militiamen.
Two light tanks and their crews are set on fire by an angry mob.
Then the British army smash up the police station with half-a-dozen tanks, many prisoners run away, and they get their men back, at another address.
These people BTW, not counting the MMMs, are our allies.

Still, as George memorably said, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

I will take an Ican to make sense of this.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 06:11 am
The Ministry of Defense said in a statement that two British troops held by Iraqi authorities in Basra were released as a result of negotiations. It said the two service personnel were with British forces.

A Defense spokesman added he had no information suggesting they were freed as a result of any overt military action. But the spokesman stopped short of denying reports that British tanks crashed through the walls of a jail in Basra to free the two troops.


I suppose, the press releases will change in a couple of days - remember the killed Brasilian in London?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 06:16 am
We are a tolerant country. But people have had enough of Iraq and terrorism. Images of British soldiers on fire and bomb victims in London are prompting people to demand some honest answers to some simple questions like Why? And if they dont get them, and pretty soon there will be serious trouble in this country. Already a large number of the judiciary, civil servants, professional and managerial classes, the very people needed to actually run the country hold the government in utter contempt for its lies spin and deceipt over Iraq. If this goes on much longer this country will become ungovernable.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 06:26 am
Just in that the
Two British soldiers whose imprisonment prompted UK troops to storm a Basra police station were later rescued from militia, the Ministry of Defence says.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 07:53 am
The UK Ministry of Defense has said the two men were released after negotiations between the UK and Iraq, and a British military official said the men were rescued because they ended up being held by Shia militia > MoD press release


Brigadier John Lorimer said that Iraqi law [CPA order 17, PDF] required that Iraq immediately hand over the detained soldiers to the Multinational Force.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 08:27 am
Yeh but they didn't, did they?
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 08:46 am
Well, I suppose it makes a bit more sense why they would storm an Iraqi jail, maybe. It still seems like it should have been done differently, but I admit to being confused so far.

Why did the Iraqi police in Basra turn the two British troops over to Shia militiamen?

If any of the coalition forces break Iraqi laws such as shooting people in a road block, are the Iraqis allowed to put them under arrest in the first place?

Is any country allowed to arrest military troops that are in their country if they break the laws of the country they stay in?

If I was an Iraqi I would tell the coalition to go home. It seems to me it is already turned into a riot and civil war has already started and they are under the yoke of the coalition forces.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 09:57 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
"Your hypotheses absent examples and/or evidence are duly noted and expected."

Altitude 45000 feet ...visibility zero...

Ground control to Major Tom:
Your circuit's dead, there's something wrong.
Can you hear me Major Tom?
Can you hear me Major Tom?
Can you hear me Major Tom? Can you ...
Laughing

Ground Control, Ground Control, Ground Control, this is Air Traffic Control! How do you read? ... Only aircraft on the ground can receive Ground Control. No aircraft aloft can receive Ground Control. Pick up the phone and call Air Traffic Control. We can help! We can receive N711NM loud and clear, and N711NM can receive us loud and clear. :wink:
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Sep, 2005 11:03 am
McTag wrote:
It's a bit of a mix-up, isn't it?
...
Still, as George memorably said, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.


The banner declaring MISSION ACCOMPLISHED was attached to the bridge of the aircraft carrier on which Presient Bush landed.

It was the aircraft carrier's crew whose mission was accomplished. Bush warned repeatedly, both before and after landing on that aircraft carrier, that removing Saddam's regime was but one step in accomplishing the IRAQ MISSION which would be long and arduous, and will require our perseverance.

Persistent adherence to TOMNOM (i.e., The Oxy-Moron News-Opinion Media) doctrines and declarations reveals extreme gullibility.

McTag wrote:
I will take an Ican to make sense of this.


While we have so far failed to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who either mass murder civilians or are accomplices to those who mass murder civilians) in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and in the rest of the world, we must nonetheless persevere until we learn how and do exterminate it. The deadly consequences to us all of failure to do so are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!

If the USA were to leave Iraq before the Iraqis are capable of exterminating malignancy there, a severe escalation in the already high rate of mass murder of civilians would occur both worldwide and in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
 

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