0
   

US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 03:29 pm
Foxfyre wrote:

...
And learning the hard way is an option I really would like to avoid here. So the rest of us will just have to work around them the best we can. They mean well. They just don't quite grasp how it is I think.

... Nor how it is I think, or how the rest of us who support the Iraq war think.

To succeed "working around them," we need a large majority of US voters to think the same way we do.

I sure hope I win my 58% bet.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 26 Aug, 2005 03:41 pm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,1280,-5236251,00.html

Quote:
Sunni Says No Deal Reached on Constitution

Friday August 26, 2005 10:01 PM


AP Photo BAG106

By ROBERT H. REID

Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A top Sunni Arab negotiator said Saturday that no agreement has been reached on the draft constitution and called on Iraqis to reject it in an Oct. 15 referendum. A government spokesman indicated talks were hopelessly deadlocked and said ``this is the end of the road.''

The Sunni negotiator, Saleh al-Mutlaq, made the statement on Al-Jazeera television after Sunnis studied compromise proposals offered by the Shiites on federalism and purges of former members of Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

``The issue of division through federalism is on the table,'' al-Mutlaq said. ``The Iraqi people have to give their word now and reject the constitution because this constitution is the beginning of the division of the country and the beginning of creating disturbance in the country.''

Asked about Shiite offers, he replied: ``We are still far from what we need and what the people need.''

A Shiite negotiator, Khaled al-Attiyah, said a ``consensus'' had been reached on the charter and an amended version would be sent to parliament Saturday. Asked about that, al-Mutlaq said simply: ``Let them.''

That suggested the Shiites and their Kurdish allies might be prepared to send the document to the assembly without Sunni concurrence.

``This is the end of the road,'' Government spokesman Laith Kubba told Al-Arabiya television. ``In the end, we will put this constitution to the people to decide.''
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 01:28 am
Quote:
Iraqis differ on charter progress

Negotiators for Iraq's Shia majority say a deal has been agreed on a final draft for the new constitution.
They say the text will be put to the Iraqi parliament for approval within the next two days.

But politicians for the minority Sunni Arabs flatly contradicted the Shia claim, saying there was no agreement despite talks late into the night.

Sunni Arabs oppose Shia and Kurdish plans for greater autonomy, arguing such moves would split the country.

A news conference in Baghdad on Friday evening, at which journalists had expected to hear an announcement on the constitution, was cancelled.

"This is the end of the road," Laith Kubba, a spokesman for the Iraqi prime minister, told al-Arabiya television. "In the end, we will put this constitution to the people to decide."

He has admitted that even if a deal is reached, it could be rejected by Iraqis in October's referendum.

Outstanding issues

The chairman of Iraq's constitution committee said on Friday that the final text of the constitution would go before the National Assembly in the next couple of days.

"There has been an agreement on the differences including the federalism issue," Sheik Humam Hammoudi, a Shia, said.


"This will give guarantees for the Sunnis."

But top Sunni negotiator, Saleh al-Mutlaq, told al-Jazeera television that compromises offered by the Shias were "still far from what we need".

And he called on Iraqi people to reject the constitution in October.

"The Iraqi people have to give their word now and reject the constitution because this constitution is the beginning of the division of the country and the beginning of creating disturbance in the country."

Iraq's Vice-President Ghazi al-Yawer, a Sunni, has defended Sunni objections to the constitution.

"So far, it seems that the content of the draft constitution is somewhat remote from the aspirations of all segments of the Iraqi people," he said.

The outstanding issues from the Shia-Kurdish draft submitted last Monday included:


federalism, and the way to form [federal] regions

the terminology used in eradicating the influence of the former Baath regime - whether to use the term Baath party or Saddam's Baath

structuring of authority between the presidency, parliament and the government.
Sunnis have expressed concerns that allowing for federalism may lead to the creation of an autonomous Shia area in southern Iraq - like the Kurdish north but under Iran's influence.

The Sunnis fear greater autonomy for the Kurdish north and Shia south could compromise their share of revenues from those oil-rich regions.

Sunni demonstrations

The original deadline last week was postponed twice - giving negotiators 10 extra days to reach a deal.

Shias and Kurds could approve the document in parliament without Sunni backing.


But the insurgency that still plagues Iraq has its roots in the Sunni heartlands and the constitution is supposed to be part of the process of winning the Sunni community round, the BBC's Baghdad correspondent Mike Wooldridge says.

It has emerged that US President George Bush phoned a Shia leader earlier this week urging him to seek consensus.

Mr Bush spoke to Abdul Aziz al-Hakim and "asked him to be more flexible with regard to Sunni demands," sources close to the ruling Shia alliance told Reuters.

Meanwhile, thousands of Sunni Muslims demonstrated in the Iraqi city of Baquba to protest against the constitution being debated in Baghdad.

Some danced and sang chants glorying Saddam Hussein, the deposed Iraqi leader who held onto power through a series of bloody crackdowns on the country's Shia and Kurdish communities.
Source
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 09:40 am
But they're still behaving like Cinderella's evil stepsisters, who cut their feet to fit them into the glass slipper: butchering reality to make the fairy tale come out their way.
August 27, 2005

Bike-Deep in the Big Muddy
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON

W. has jumped the couch.

Not fallen off the couch, as he did when he choked on that pretzel.

Jumped it.

According to UrbanDictionary.com, "jump the couch" has now become slang for "a defining moment when you know someone has gone off the deep end. Inspired by Tom Cruise's recent behavior on 'Oprah.' Also see 'jump the shark.' "

The former stateside National Guardsman who was sometimes M.I.A. jumped the shark by landing on that "Mission Accomplished" carrier. (With Tom Cruise cockiness.)

Then, as president, he jumped the couch by pedaling through the guns of August - the growing carnage and chaos in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He did do a few minutes of work this month, calling a Shiite leader in Baghdad a few days ago to lobby him to reach a consensus with the Sunnis, so Iraq doesn't crack apart. But the Shiites and Kurds ignored the president and skewered the Sunnis.

Iraq, it turns out, is the one branch of American government that the Republicans don't control.

W. had a barbecue for the press on Thursday night. (If only the press had grilled him instead.) He mingled over catfish and potato salad with the reporters, who had to ride past Cindy Sheehan's antiwar encampment to get to the poolside party.

Dan Froomkin wrote on the Washington Post Web site that many of the reporters "fawned over Bush, following him around in packs every time he moved." W. chatted about sports and the twins, still oblivious to the cultural shift that is turning 2005 into 1968.

As the news correspondent Dan Harris noted on ABC on Wednesday, the mood is much different now from what it was when the Dixie Chicks got pilloried for criticizing the president just before the war began.

The No. 1 music video requested on MTV is Green Day's antiwar song, "Wake Me Up When September Ends," about the pain of soldiers and their families. On Sunday, Joan Baez sang peace anthems at Camp Casey, including "Where Have All the Flowers Gone?" The N.F.L. did not cancel its sponsorship of the Rolling Stones tour, even though the band has a new song critical of Mr. Bush and the war.

Gary Hart began his Washington Post op-ed piece this week by quoting from an anti-Vietnam War song, "Waist-deep in the Big Muddy, and the big fool said to push on."

The former campaign manager for George McGovern's antiwar campaign in 1972 wrote: "We've stumbled into a hornet's nest. We've weakened ourselves at home and in the world. We are less secure today than before this war began. Who now has the courage to say this?"

Anxiety is growing among politicians on both sides of the aisle. More and more Americans don't want to stay-the-course on stay-the-course.

You'd think that by now, watching the meshugas in Iraq, the Bush crowd would have learned some lessons about twisting facts to suit ideology, and punishing those who try to tell the truth. But they're still behaving like Cinderella's evil stepsisters, who cut their feet to fit them into the glass slipper: butchering reality to make the fairy tale come out their way.

Eric Lichtblau reported in The Times this week that the administration was dumping the highly respected Lawrence Greenfeld, appointed by President Bush in 2001 to head the Bureau of Justice Statistics, because he refused superiors' orders to delete from a press release an account of how black and Hispanic drivers were treated more aggressively by the police after traffic stops. The Justice Department study showed markedly higher rates of searches and use of force for black and Hispanic drivers, compared with white drivers.

Fearing that the survey would give ammunition to members of Congress who object to using racial and ethnic data in terrorism and law enforcement investigations, Mr. Greenfeld's supervisors buried it online with no press release or briefing for Congress.

Mr. Lichtblau wrote that when Mr. Greenfeld sent the planned press release to the office of his supervisor, Tracy Henke, then an acting assistant attorney general, the section on the treatment of black and Hispanic drivers was crossed out with a notation: "Do we need this?" Ms. Henke herself had added a note: "Make the changes."

Like Condi Rice, Stephen Hadley, John Bolton and others who helped spin reality to suit political ends, Ms. Henke was rewarded by the president. She has been nominated for a senior post in the Homeland Security Department.

I feel safer already.

E-mail: [email protected]

* Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 10:09 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:

...
"The Iraqi people have to give their word now and reject the constitution because this constitution is the beginning of the division of the country and the beginning of creating disturbance in the country."

Many months ago, the malignancy among the Sunni began both "the division of the country" and "creating disturbance in the country."

Clearly, the first step to democratic self-government in Iraq is the creation of three autonomous, preferably democratically, self-governing provinces. The second step is the extermination by the Sunni of the malignancy among them so as to prevent the re-establishment and/or re-evolution of another Baathist dictatorship. The third step is the unification of those three provinces into a single country with oil revenue sharing proportional to the population of each province.

This will probably take a long time.

...
Meanwhile, thousands of Sunni Muslims demonstrated in the Iraqi city of Baquba to protest against the constitution being debated in Baghdad.

Some danced and sang chants glorying Saddam Hussein, the deposed Iraqi leader who held onto power through a series of bloody crackdowns on the country's Shia and Kurdish communities. Crying or Very sad What more need be said?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 10:26 am
Even if they finally find a compromise - if two-thirds of voters in any three of Iraq's 18 provinces reject the constitution, it will be defeated.
Sunnis form a majority in at least four provinces. Sunni clerics already have urged them to vote "no" if the draft does not serve Sunni interests.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 01:06 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Even if they finally find a compromise - if two-thirds of voters in any three of Iraq's 18 provinces reject the constitution, it will be defeated.
Sunnis form a majority in at least four provinces. Sunni clerics already have urged them to vote "no" if the draft does not serve Sunni interests.


Even if the Constitution were to be approved, the malignancyamong the Sunni will do everything it can to sabotage any governing under that Constitution.

So what should be done?

I recommend the three step process I posted above. That way at least two out of the three Iraq provinces will probably act according to the best interests of their respective populations and exterminate the malignancy among them. The third one, the people in the Sunni province, will in the meantime simply have to pay the price (in more ways than one) for their cowardardly deference to the malignancy among them.

By the way,

Often stated by some is the recommendation that those who support the Iraq war ought to volunteer and join the military. So far, many have!

I have an additional recomendation. Those opposed to the Iraq war ought to volunteer to walk for a month or so without our military's protection on the road between Baghdad and Baghdad Airport (i.e., suffer a more immediate risk of you too becoming a malignancy victim). So far none have!
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 01:10 pm
ican711nm wrote:
Those opposed to the Iraq war ought to volunteer to walk for a month or so without our military's protection on the road between Baghdad and Baghdad Airport (i.e., suffer a more immediate risk of you too becoming a malignancy victim). So far none have!


Well, that's a very logical conclusion Shocked
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 01:16 pm
I doubt there are any conservative cheerleaders there, either.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 01:16 pm
That "malignancy" wasn't there before March 2003. As a matter of fact, world-wide malignancy increased after our invasion of Iraq. The war on terrorism have accomplished the opposite of what it was supposed to because of the incompetence of this administration. The only malignancy is sitting in the white house. Oh, excuse me; he's on vacation.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 01:18 pm
Once, when a fight broke out between two guys i knew in a bar, as i was tryin' to break it up, a guy walks up (as i later found out, coming from the far end of the building) and sucker punches me while i've just got a hold on the two idjits and am pulling them apart. He later told the police that he "felt threatened" by me. Of course, he was obliged to walk the length of the building in order to feel threatened, but hey, in Ican's world, that sort of thing is completely plausible.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 02:19 pm
And the dance of death and denial goes on, in my absence!

Ican still wants to kill more people in an attempt to stop people from dying.

Fox still thinks that we are the ones losing the war by not being patriotic, and the daily attacks over there have nothing to do with it....

Nothing changes.

Cheers!

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 04:20 pm
You said it cylop, this place has become one big bore. Sadly there isn't anywhere else any better in cyber land.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 04:24 pm
I might not know of all places on the net, does anyone know a place where there are just liberals or at least a place free of far rights. I think I am just tired of debating and just want to talk around people who think along the same lines as I do.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 04:44 pm
us and them
revel : i have just the forum for you : the forum of the german weather network. not much discussion about politics, but plenty of dicussion about the weather - and what to do about it. i'm sure there will be no objection to entries in english - some participants may even encourage you. hbg

ps. as for myself, i'll look at my stamp-collection again - very peaceful !


...GERMAN WEATHER FORUM...
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 05:10 pm
revel wrote:
I might not know of all places on the net, does anyone know a place where there are just liberals or at least a place free of far rights. I think I am just tired of debating and just want to talk around people who think along the same lines as I do.


You dwell at A2K -- a place that's lousy with liberals -- and you demand 100%?

Type "liberal forum" into google and click "I'm Feeling Lucky." Sayonara.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Aug, 2005 08:27 pm
Explosion hits Philippines ferry
An explosion on a ferry in the southern Philippines has injured at least 24 people, according to the military.
Passengers were boarding the Dona Ramona at Lamitan on the island of Basilan were the blast occurred.

An army spokesman said it could have been caused by a cooking gas cylinder on board, but that other causes were not being discounted.

Basilan is the base for the Abu Sayyaf Muslim insurgents, and the island has a history of political violence.

Earlier in August, 26 people were injured by two explosions in the port city of Zamboanga, an attack blamed on Abu Sayyaf, a group which has been linked to al-Qaeda.

The Dona Ramona had been due to sail to Zamboanga.

When the explosion went off, it started a small fire on the steel-hulled vessel.

"We have evacuated the ship and sent the wounded people to nearby hospitals," said Brigadier-General Raymundo Ferrer, Basilan's army commander.

He said no group had claimed responsibility for the blast.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/asia-pacific/4192102.stm

Published: 2005/08/28 02:01:53 GMT
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Aug, 2005 08:27 am
hamburger, never was one for talking about the weather, but thanks. Smile

Tico, typical.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Aug, 2005 12:03 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
ican711nm wrote:
Those opposed to the Iraq war ought to volunteer to walk for a month or so without our military's protection on the road between Baghdad and Baghdad Airport (i.e., suffer a more immediate risk of you too becoming a malignancy victim). So far none have!


Well, that's a very logical conclusion Shocked


I apologize for my previous excessive subtlety.

These two paragraphs of mine go together. My claim is that if the first recommendation is rational, then surely the second recommendation is also rational.
Quote:
By the way,

Often stated by some is the recommendation that those who support the Iraq war ought to volunteer and join the military. So far, many have!

I have an additional recomendation. Those opposed to the Iraq war ought to volunteer to walk for a month or so without our military's protection on the road between Baghdad and Baghdad Airport (i.e., suffer a more immediate risk of you too becoming a malignancy victim). So far none have!


I think the first recommendation is irrational.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 28 Aug, 2005 12:11 pm
Setanta wrote:
I doubt there are any conservative cheerleaders there, either.


How about conservative, voluntary enlistees? At least two or three perhaps? Rolling Eyes

How about conservative re-enlistees? At least one or two perhaps? Rolling Eyes

If there be any such, wouldn't they also count as conservative cheerleaders?

Of course they would!
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.06 seconds on 07/21/2025 at 06:05:51