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Bible Study Help!

 
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 12:15 pm
Christianity
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Wed 11 May, 2005 01:32 pm
Insanity.

God, please protect me from your followers!
0 Replies
 
MiTHoS
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 09:44 am
NewSoul wrote:
In Quran Allah says, "It is He who hath created for you all ...


Before you start quoting the Quran, you have to prove that it's the word of God......and it isn't and you haven't proved that it is.

And obviously you haven't read the whole bible because you take verses way out of context. A verse out of context is meaningless.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 10:14 am
MYTH,

I have had proved many times that the Quran is in fact the Words from GOD. Scientific discoveries prove day by day that all the scientific data in the Quran are correct and in fact it is the truth that many scientists accepted and that represents only one side of the beauty of the Quran. If you bring me one, tiny section of the Quran that gives a false scientific data then we can talk. The Quran is Full of scientific explanations of all the Creations and designs of God and he is asking us to study it to better appreciate the Greatness of God and use his infinite Blessings on us. The true fact that the Bible was written by Man and that is why it needs updates all the time to correct the discrepancies in it. It is a very good book, nobody can denie that but it is not the truth because it was updated so many times that it lost it's credibilities. As a Muslim, I am ordered by God and His Messenger PBUH to believe in Jesus and his true Bible as there was one before it got corrupted and it is when the Bible got corrupted that God sent the Quran and protected it from any corruption to represent the Laws of God on Earth. Don't have faith on the Bible that has clearly been loosing its credibilities . God is all Knowing and does not make mistakes or permit to any Man to rewrite his words even if it was only one word but HE Almighty sends prophets that are choosen by the Almighty Himself.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 12:20 pm
real life wrote:
NewSoul wrote:
OK! - So therefore, it is better to accept in blind faith and believe in things which no one can truly attest to because the documentation and proof of the genuine testament doesn't exist, but to not believe that what has been preserved for 1400 years, with true documentation.

Preservation of the Quran for 1400 years is a demonstration to all mankind of the Will of God. No matter how men try to twist God's will in Earth he, Almighty, protects it and make people that had no Knowledge about it, become a strong believer of the one true God, the Creator of all the Universes .

The difference between a Muslim and a Christian is that when a Muslim criticize something in Islam he/she finds a beautiful and a just answer full of wisdom and where ? in the Quran that was never updated whereas a Christian can only accept because of confusion left by Men who wrote the Bibles, book that need to be constantly updated to correct concerns and issues.
Before you criticize the Bible, perhaps you should read it so you have some basis for your commentary.

When I say read it, I mean all of it, not just bits and pieces.

Just as a man who watches 3 minutes of a 12 hour miniseries on TV cannot claim to fully understand what is being shown, so reading bits and pieces of the Bible does not give you an understanding of it.

Try reading it all.
You see, real life, we don't disagree on everything. I've stayed out of this thread after my first reply, because EM was simply posting sarcasm without regard for any answer. Since then, the thread has never really been on topic. NewSoul, I'm sorry to say has failed to provide anything in his pleonasms. EM must be http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/rofl.gif
But, as for me, I'm http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/outta.gif
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 02:58 pm
neologist wrote:

because EM was simply posting sarcasm without regard for any answer.


Unbelievable! Where's the sarcasm?

I was asking questions. If you see anyone that is asking the meaning of what actual passages of the Bible mean, I think you're the sarcastic one.

No one came close to answering me directly about my questions regarding are we morally obligated to gouge our eyes out and cut off our hands if they offend us.

As usual, they just avoid it, hint that something is wrong with me, and make up their own bizarre meanings for it, then go off on a ranting tangent.

If you look at what I've posted in this thread, its mostly all about scripture. Directly related to scripture.

Except where someone talks about himself being a white American---why should that have anything to do with whether I should cut off my hands or gouge out my eyes according to New Testament?

And by the way New Soul: In your posts, were you saying that you think Jesus was bisexual? The way you worded some of your posts appears to be saying that? Where do you get that from? This is not sarcastic...go back and look at NewSoul's posts...see, they make these posts, I ask a question, and get called sarcastic? Someone else claims Jesus was bisexual and I'm the sarcastic one for asking about it?
0 Replies
 
gospelmancan2
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 09:39 pm
A lot of questions!!!!!!!
Assuming that you would actually like the answers to your questions and you aren't just pulling our collective chains; the first rule in classical Bible study is context. You need to look at whom the text is speaking to, in this case I think it is safe to say that it is written to the Tribes of Israel in the wilderness. You can lump most of your questions into the "futility of satisfying God with deeds" category. In Romans Paul writes that the law does not satisfy God unto righteousness. He also says the just shall live by faith. According to the Bible, it is faith in Jesus that justifies us before God. If you were to do all the things these questions imply, you would be no further ahead in the eyes of God than if you did anyone of the other myriad things mentioned in the books of the law. One of the other things to keep in mind about the Old Testament is that much in it foreshadows the coming of Christ and living the Christian way of life. Many of the ordinances mentioned in your post look to not the literal following of these laws as in the time of Moses but of the idea of Christians following a different set of rules than the rest of the world. As to what to follow and what not to follow in the Bible I would suggest you start with some words Jesus spoke. "Luke 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. (This is assuming you are a believer in Christ, if not I suggest you look at Romans 10:9 and 10)
0 Replies
 
SN95
 
  1  
Reply Thu 12 May, 2005 11:12 pm
NewSoul wrote:
MYTH,

I have had proved many times that the Quran is in fact the Words from GOD. Scientific discoveries prove day by day that all the scientific data in the Quran are correct and in fact it is the truth that many scientists accepted and that represents only one side of the beauty of the Quran. If you bring me one, tiny section of the Quran that gives a false scientific data then we can talk. The Quran is Full of scientific explanations of all the Creations and designs of God and he is asking us to study it to better appreciate the Greatness of God and use his infinite Blessings on us. The true fact that the Bible was written by Man and that is why it needs updates all the time to correct the discrepancies in it. It is a very good book, nobody can denie that but it is not the truth because it was updated so many times that it lost it's credibilities. As a Muslim, I am ordered by God and His Messenger PBUH to believe in Jesus and his true Bible as there was one before it got corrupted and it is when the Bible got corrupted that God sent the Quran and protected it from any corruption to represent the Laws of God on Earth. Don't have faith on the Bible that has clearly been loosing its credibilities . God is all Knowing and does not make mistakes or permit to any Man to rewrite his words even if it was only one word but HE Almighty sends prophets that are choosen by the Almighty Himself.


You may start with these:

1. Creation: The biblical Genesis account says God created all in six days (see Genesis 1:1 - 2:2). The Quran, however, has a real problem here as Surah 41:9, 10, 12 have a total of eight days of creation (4+2+2=8) Meanwhile, Surah 10:3 gives the total number of days of creation as six. This is a problem of self-contradiction.

2. Pharaoh: According to the Quran (Surah 7:120-125) Pharaoh used crucifixion in dealing with the sorcerers - a practice which historical evidence gives no precedent to before the Babylonian Empire. This is once again a problem of historical compression.

3. The Golden Calf: According to the Quran (Surah 20:90-100)a Samaritan helped the Israelites build the golden calf, and it mooed after coming out of the fire. In reality, Samaritans did not exist as a people until at least 1000 years after the time of the Moses and the Israelite exodus from Egypt. Again a problem of historical compression.

4. Judaism: According to the Quran (Surah 9:30) the Jews believe that Ezra is the Son of God - the Messiah. This never has been a tenet of Judaism. This is a clear problem of distorted knowledge of other religions and historical fact.

5. Alexander the Great: According to the Quran (Surah 18:89-98) Alexander the Great was a devout Muslim and lived to a ripe old age. Historical records however show that Alexander the Great died young at 33 years of age (b. 356 B.C. - d. 323 B.C.), and believed he was divine, forcing others to recognize him as such. In India on the Hyphasis River (now Beas) Alexander erected twelve altars to twelve Olympian gods. Once again the Quran shows errors in historical and religious fact.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 09:25 am
SN95 , You are not very intelligent , are you? Maybe just not Knowlegeable, like Bush? Smile

First of all it was said by God in so many verses that God created the HEavens and Earth in 6 days.

1) Now, if you read the verses that you had confusion with, God says that he created the Earth in 2 days. Doesn't that tell you that the HEavens were created in 4 days ?
You should take PreCalculus again.

2) Who said that? give proofs. The Quran is clearly saying that Pharaoh used crucifixion in dealing with the sorcerers. The Pharaons who were very intelligent, who built Pyramids that we are not able to build these days because simply we don't have the tools necessary to carry the so heavy rocks used to very high heights, could do anything. Is Crucifixion very hard to guess ?.

3) A detailed account of Moses, Aaron and the golden calf is given in the Bible (Exodus 32:1-35). It clearly states that Aaron, urgently requested by the people, made a golden calf with his own hands and said, "This is your God, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." But in the Qur`ân it is Al Sâmirî who both led the people astray and produced the calf while Aaron is largely innocent. In verse 20:97 where Al Sâmirî was rebuked by Moses, he was told that the ashes of his idol would be scattered at sea.

Who then is this Al Sâmirî, who is not mentioned at all in Exodus? Has Muhammad simply made up a name out of thin air?

There is a strained connection between Al Sâmirî and a golden calf in the Bible. The name "Al Sâmirî" quite simply means "the Samaritan" in Arabic. After the death of King Solomon in 932 BC, Israel was divided into two kingdoms. In time Samaria became the capital of the northern kingdom, a city which was founded in around 875 BC, hundreds of years after Moses and Aaron (Bibelfakta i färg, Libris, 1986, p.272 = Encyclopedia of the Bible, Lion Publishing).The first king in the north was Jeroboam. He had two golden calves made and said, "Here are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt." (1Kings 12:25-31), which is what Aaron had said several hundred years earlier. Can it be that Muhammad got the golden calves mixed up, even though they are separated by several hundred years, and therefore speaks about the Samaritan who made a golden calf?

The Samaritans as an ethnic people arose much later, after the Assyrians had defeated the northern kingdom and carried off the people into captivity in 722 BC. The Israelites remaining in the area became mixed with other peoples, and so the "Samaritans" were formed. For this reason we can exclude the possibility that an ethnic Samaritan could have been with Aaron and made a golden calf.

4) If you read thru the history books of Jews when they lost the Torah, you will understand whether or not some of them considered Ezra "'Uzayr" as a son of God. Do not forget that the Jews were living with Muslims in peace and they had the freedom to practise their religion and Islam can't be forced on a person simply because it is the heart that accepts it and not the body.

Old Testament was given its present form by Uzayr, and some Jews in Madinah at the time considered Uzayr as a son of God. This verse was read in front of them many times and none of them came forwarded to object to it. According to Qurtubi the Jewish sect that considered Uzayr as the son of God had become extinct by his time. The Qur'an simply points out that these beliefs are errors and specifies out the mistakes in adhering to these faults.

5)Alexander the Great is not the "Dhul Qarnayn" which the Qur'an referred to. Read "Tafhim al-Qur'an " by Mawdudi. Chapter 18.


THE STORY OF ALEXANDER THE GREAT (THUL-KARNAIN)

The answer to the second question concerning the great traveler, Alexander, was sent down to the Prophet (sa) in the following verses:

"They will ask you about Thul-Karnain (Alexander). Say: 'I will recite to you something of this story. We established him in the land and gave him means to all things. He journeyed on a way until when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and nearby he found a nation. 'Thul-Karnain,' We said, 'you must either punish them or show them kindness.' He replied: 'The evil-doer we shall punish. Then he shall return to his Lord and He will punish him with a stern punishment. As for he who believes and does good works he shall receive a fine reward in recompense and we shall bestow on them a rich reward and shall speak to him with a mild command.' Then he followed the road until he reached the rising of the sun, he found it rising upon a nation for whom We provided no veil against it to shade them. So, We encompassed in knowledge what was with him. Then he followed the road, when he reached between the two barriers he found on one side of them, a nation who could barely understand speech. 'Thul-Karnain,' they said, 'Look, Gog and Magog are corrupting the earth. Build us a barrier between us and them, and we will pay you tribute.' He replied: 'That which my Lord has given me is better, therefore help me with all your power, and I will build a barrier between you and them. Bring me ingots of iron.' After he had leveled between the two cliffs, he said: 'Blow.' And when he made it a fire, he said: 'Bring me molten copper so that I may pour over it.' Thereafter they could neither scale it, nor could they pierce it. He said: 'This is a mercy from my Lord. But when my Lord's promise is come, He will make it dust. The promise of my Lord is true.' On that day, We will let them surge on one another, and the Horn shall be blown, and We will gather them all together. On that Day We shall present Gehenna to the unbelievers whose eyes were blinded to My remembrance and they were not able to hear." Koran 18:83-101



Also,
Alexander the Great is known as the most powerful military leader and conqueror of the ancient world. Before he turned 30 years old he conquered an empire stretching over 3,000 miles from Greece to India. He was born in 356 BC in Macedonia, known today as northern Greece.

On his sickbed and during his last hour alive, Alexander the Great told his generals "After my death, when you put my body in the casket, let my arms hang over the edges with my palms wide open, so the public can see my empty hands while I am leaving the world." After he died, many dignitaries came to view the royal funeral and were very surprised to see his arms hanging over the edge of the casket with his palms wide open. They asked questions about this unique scene. A wise man told them "O' People, Alexander the Great is telling us that when he ruled the world, great treasures of gold, silver and wealth came to be under his possession. Yet, indeed he is leaving the world empty handed."

Source: Partially extracted from the writtings of JC Pinkerton.

Anas bin Malik, may Allah be pleased with him, reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Three things follow the bier of a dead man, two of them come back and one is left with him: the members of his family, wealth and his good deeds. The members of his family and wealth come back while his deeds alone are left with him. (Sahih Muslim)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 10:17 am
EM, your questions were answered on the first page and in several places thereafter. Examples: A] Jesus fulfilled the law, making it obsolete for christians. B] Jesus used parables, illustrations and hyperbole to make his points: So, if there is anything in our lives preventing us from following the way, we should remove it. Jesus used the analogies of eye and hand to illustrate how important some of these things may appear to us, when in reality, the kingdom is of the utmost importance.

If the answers are unacceptable to you, attack the answers. Some replies may be off topic. Deal with them as you see fit.

NewSoul, If you'd make your answers shorter, folks would be more inclined to read them. BTW, the original topic of this thread is BIBLE study help.
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 12:33 pm
Dear Neologist,

I can't make them shorter than that but I will try next time.


Michael
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 12:43 pm
NewSoul wrote:
Dear Neologist,

I can't make them shorter than that but I will try next time.


Michael

Cheers, Michael! http://web4.ehost-services.com/el2ton1/pepsi.gif
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 12:49 pm
neologist wrote:
EM, your questions were answered on the first page and in several places thereafter. Examples: A] Jesus fulfilled the law, making it obsolete for christians. B] Jesus used parables, illustrations and hyperbole to make his points: So, if there is anything in our lives preventing us from following the way, we should remove it. Jesus used the analogies of eye and hand to illustrate how important some of these things may appear to us, when in reality, the kingdom is of the utmost importance.
If the answers are unacceptable to you, attack the answers.


Thank you for staying on point.

Unacceptable answer above.

You have decided that you know when Jesus was speaking in parables, and when he was speaking literally.

How can you say you know Jesus was speaking in a parable above, but he was not speaking in a parable when he says things like "woe to the fornicators"?

That could be a parable too.

In effect, when people translate the Bible arbitrarily and "their mind" tells them how to interpret the passages so it fits their life nicely, it seems that they aren't following the Bible at all. Just following a nice fairy tale interpretation that they made up in their mind.

They read parts they like literally. Parts they don't like, they say: "ooo it doesn't mean that, that was a parable."

I've had more than one rich person say to me the part about "harder for rich man to get into heaven than threading a camel through needle" is a mis-reading of the Bible.

They say: "Oh, thats a mis-reading. Jesus wants you to be rich monetarily. That meant_______________"

And there's a lot of people who do this, with the whole Bible.

So my quetion to you Neologist (and others who read it like you)--is don't you see you are deciding when to take things literally and when to say "its just a parable"?

Thus, the whole Bible can just be literal or surreal allegory, whenever YOUR mind decides.

There are at least 50 Christian denominations out there reading the Bible in all kinds of various ways. A lot of them claim their reading is the One Correct reading and people not in their denominations will go to Hell.

This is what I am talking about.

How do you, as a human, KNOW, which denomination is Correct?

Its almost as if you are saying YOU are GOD?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 12:59 pm
extra medium wrote:

You have decided that you know when Jesus was speaking in parables, and when he was speaking literally.

How can you say you know Jesus was speaking in a parable above, but he was not speaking in a parable when he says things like "woe to the fornicators"?

That could be a parable too.

God didn't give us regulations to keep us from having fun, He gave us regulations to protect us from harm. The devastating effects of fornication are well known: venereal disease, unwed mothers, family strife, jealousy, you name it. Surely they are not inescapable consequences, but more easily avoided by continence.

The bible was written so that the most unsophisticated of us could understand it. When you intellectualize, you prove your intelligence. When you believe your intellectualizations, you prove your ignorance.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:06 pm
neologist wrote:
extra medium wrote:

You have decided that you know when Jesus was speaking in parables, and when he was speaking literally.

How can you say you know Jesus was speaking in a parable above, but he was not speaking in a parable when he says things like "woe to the fornicators"?

That could be a parable too.

God didn't give us regulations to keep us from having fun, He gave us regulations to protect us from harm. The devastating effects of fornication are well known: venereal disease, unwed mothers, family strife, jealousy, you name it. Surely they are not inescapable consequences, but more easily avoided by continence.

The bible was written so that the most unsophisticated of us could understand it. When you intellectualize, you prove your intelligence. When you believe your intellectualizations, you prove your ignorance.


When you claim your reading is correct and other readings and interpretations are wrong, you condescend and show your bigotry.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:20 pm
Well, let's be specific for a moment:
Gouging ones eyes -
Committing fornication -
Gouging ones eyes -
Committing fornication -
Gouging ones eyes -
Committing fornication -

Let's see. Where does our interpretation make sense?
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:21 pm
neologist wrote:

The bible was written so that the most unsophisticated of us could understand it.


Disagree!

The Ten Commandments might have been written with such simple clarity so that unsophisticated could understand.

Even the most sophisticated have trouble making sense of Books such as Revelations.

But I suppose you have the perfect reading & interpretation of every phrase of that Book?

***

Point is: How can someone hope to gain salvation of their soul from debatable passages of a long & twisted book, that has as many interpretations as their are human beings?
0 Replies
 
NewSoul
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:31 pm
A Pepsi would be great Laughing

Thank you Neologist
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:33 pm
neologist wrote:
Well, let's be specific for a moment:
Gouging ones eyes -
Committing fornication -
Gouging ones eyes -
Committing fornication -
Gouging ones eyes -
Committing fornication -

Let's see. Where does our interpretation make sense?


Make sense?

Who ever said anything about ANY of it making sense?

Lets see: You got this all powrful being called God. He creates something in his own image. But that thing gets somehow warped and starts doing bad stuff. So the God punishes that thing and all its descendants with the fruit of Original Sin. A lot of wars and killing and bloody nasty stuff happens. Then this God decides to send down his Son to die as sort of a human/god sacrifice or something, and this son will talk in parables sometimes, then this God will have prophets and writers write difficult to interpret Books such as Revelations, and then tell people to live by this book. And from the moment this book is written, people will argue about what every book in the Bible means. Not to mention have a political meeting 300 years after the cruxifixion to make sure Books they don't like are kept out of the Bible. Then one must believe in things unseen, written by people who weren't there, twisted and changed through history by poticians and royalty. (I'll stop).


The above doesn't make sense. Why would a God that cared about us play such a cruel trick on us such as the above, make it so unbelievable uncertain and debatable as to what to do to "get into heaven?"

This is what I find incredible about The Bible.

I love the idea of Jesus, actually.

I just find it very difficult to believe that a God who truly cared about us would ask us to believe something based on such a debatable, questionable, chaotic past.

The universe doesn't usually work like this. Reality is usually more direct. I think a God would be much more direct about things. Not asking you to believe a copy of a copy of a rumor or somebody's story...?

That troubles me.

Jesus doesn't trouble me, actually.

The twisted Bible troubles me. When I really try to read it, it just seems twisted chaos.

Unbelievable you say it was written so that the most unsophisticated could understand it.

I think its one of the more twisted chaotic texts out there.

There are pages and even books of clarity in it. But taken as a whole, it seems almost Chaos?

(And note this is coming from someone actually sympathetic to Christianity--I wouldn't mind believing.)
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 May, 2005 01:33 pm
I'll be gone for while. Meanwhile let me say that learning the deeper things might require effort, but not superior mental ability.
0 Replies
 
 

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