You're All Going to Hell!

For God so despised the world, he sent his greatest misbegotten flim-flam to confound and cozen men and the sons of men and the sons of the sons of men even unto the last generation.

Matthewmarkslukesjohn, 33 skidoo

The above mumbo-jumbo has exactly the same validity as any other scriptural nonsense which one may see posted here.

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I've once heard one of my catholic confirmation instructers say that hell might be empty. There is of course perkatry (I know thats not how you spell it) that people who aren't "super good" spend time in before going to heavon. Personally I believe that since god didn't want to make us to be perfect and since hell was originally not meant for us, only those who do completely terrible things like kill innocent people and never ask for forgiveness end up in hell.

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Thought you might be interested in this observation I posted elsewhere:
Posted elsewhere on the internet:

The following is purported to be an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying
it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over.

The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A"

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MJB919, the place is Purgatory . . .

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http://home.mindspring.com/~fcalaja/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/jg1.jpg

Hell In A Bucket

Well I was drinkin' last night with a biker
And I showed him a picture of you
I said, pal get to know her, you'll like her
Seemed like the least I could do.
Cause when he's chargin' his chopper
Up and down your carpeted halls
You will think I am dressed up quite proper
Never mind how I stumble and fall.

You imagine me sipping champagne from your boot
For taste of your elegant pride
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe
But at least I'm enjoying the ride, at least I'll enjoy the ride.

Cause you're a sweet little softcore pretender
Somehow, babe, it got as hot as it gets
With her black leather and gold spike suspenders
And your chain, your black whip and pets.

Well we know you're the reincarnation
Of the infamous catherine the great
And we know how you love the ovation
And the scene that it seems to create.

You imagine me sipping champagne from your boot
For taste of your elegant pride
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe
But at least I'm enjoying the ride, at least I'll enjoy the ride.

You analyze me, tend to despise me
You laugh when I stumble and fall
There may come a say when I'll dance on your grave
Unable to dance I'll still crawl across it
Unable to dance I'll still crawl
Unable to dance I'll still crawl
Unable to dance I'll crawl.

You must really consider the circus
It just might be your kind of zoo
I can't think of a place that's more perfect
For a person as perfect as you.

And it's not like I'm leaving you lonely
Cause I wouldn't know where to begin
Well I know you wake up here only
When the snakes come marching in.

You imagine me sipping champagne from your boot
For taste of your elegant pride
I may be going to hell in a bucket, babe
But at least I'm enjoying the ride, at least I'll enjoy the ride.
Ride, ride, ride
Ride, ride, ride
Ride, ride, ride
At least I'll enjoy the ride.
At least I'll enjoy the ride.
At least I'll enjoy the ride.

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Finally this thread is geting somewhere

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Why are we subject to their legacy? Why is it justified to punish the children for something the parents have done?

Maybe it's ok to put the children of convicts in jail at birth...?

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fredjones wrote:

Why are we subject to their legacy? Why is it justified to punish the children for something the parents have done?

Maybe it's ok to put the children of convicts in jail at birth...?

Fred; do you want the biblical answer? If you believe it, here is what the writers of recondite rubbish will say:

Setanta will say: You've just lost my respect.

Xingu will say: I've just mooned your cow. (I know this is from a different thread, but it's a classic!)

Terry will say: I'm just not conscious of how to spell conscience.

MJB919 will say: I jus hat spel chek!

That being said, here goes nothin'!

If God had executed Adam and Eve on the spot, You and I would not be having this discussion. We would not even be here. That would have been a victory for Satan, who must have believed his plan would force God to either allow Adam and Eve to escape punishment or abandon his purpose for humankind. That would have left unanswered the question inherent in Satan's challenge: Does God have the right to decide what is good and what is bad?

In spite of the miserable condition of the world today, I'm glad to have been born. I look forward to the fulfilment of the prophecy in Genesis chapter 3 when Jesus will crush the head of the serpent.

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I take it then, that you assert your own particular rubbish to be superior to any offered by those whom you have scorned? How very quaint, and predictable.

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Setanta wrote:

I take it then, that you assert your own particular rubbish to be superior to any offered by those whom you have scorned? How very quaint, and predictable.

Setanta wrote:

For God so despised the world, he sent his greatest misbegotten flim-flam to confound and cozen men and the sons of men and the sons of the sons of men even unto the last generation.

Matthewmarkslukesjohn, 33 skidoo

The above mumbo-jumbo has exactly the same validity as any other scriptural nonsense which one may see posted here.

Far be it from me to monopolize the rubbish and scorn. An argument based on the bible may be refuted in just two ways, as I see it:
Either 1] It's not correct according to the bible, or 2] It's not correct because it is based on the bible. I assert my argument is at the least correct according to the bible.

It's not my place to say whether you believe the bible is rubbish, however much I may think so. You obviously are light years ahead of me in intellect. However, the bible was written so ordinary bumbleheads like me would be able to find our way in this screwed up world.

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Quote:

However, the bible was written so ordinary bumbleheads like me would be able to find our way in this screwed up world.

Then how come so many seem to require assistance in interpreting the bible? There's a rocking business on broadcast television doing just that -- run, usually, by rich grinners with enormous compounds in Southern California who, nonetheless, operate under the guise of a not-for-profit corporation.

(Anywho, the Bible was written when the vast majority of people were illiterate. Seems more likely it was written as a form of records-keeping by the odd few who had the facility and leisure time to read and write...)

(Just for the hell of getting involved here...)

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patiodog wrote:

Quote:
However, the bible was written so ordinary bumbleheads like me would be able to find our way in this screwed up world.

Then how come so many seem to require assistance in interpreting the bible? There's a rocking business on broadcast television doing just that -- run, usually, by rich grinners with enormous compounds in Southern California who, nonetheless, operate under the guise of a not-for-profit corporation.

(Anywho, the Bible was written when the vast majority of people were illiterate. Seems more likely it was written as a form of records-keeping by the odd few who had the facility and leisure time to read and write...)

(Just for the hell of getting involved here...)

Outstanding points!
The jews were required to teach their children the scriptures and ". . . you must in an undertone read in it day and night, in order that you may take care to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way successful and then you will act wisely" (Joshua 1:8). The pharisees responded to this simple command by multiplying the law to an excess, prompting Jesus to condemn them.

After the first century, the clergy gradually usurped the role of interpreting the scriptures to the point where owning a copy of the bible was punishable by death. It was necessary for the power of the clergy and their political allies to keep the masses illiterate. How else could we have had the incredible excesses perpetrated in God's name throughout the centuries?

Even today, the flim and flam continues. I once knew a person who had in his possession an interesting artifact, a belt buckle worn by a German soldier in WW2. It was inscribed with the words, "Gott mit uns." (God is with us.) That German soldier was almost certainly a Catholic or a Lutheran who believed that his god would prevail over the god of the Catholics and Lutherans fighting for the enemy. Who do you think fed him that crock of shinola?

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Neologist, you failed to answer my questions:

How could Adam and Eve be blamed for an action they took before they supposedly had any concept of good, evil, or sin?

How did they modify their own genomes to produce an inheritable imperfection?

And if they did, why didn't God correct the flaw so that each generation would have the same opportunity to choose for themselves?

The serpent told them the truth. If you do not believe that, tell me in what way he deceived them.

Why do you suppose that God lied to them?

Why would God want them to remain naked and ignorant of morality forever?

Where did the serpent get its knowledge? Do you think that God forbade it to eat the fruit but it disobeyed as well?

Do you really believe in talking snakes, magical fruit, and God imposing the death penalty for choosing knowledge over ignorance, or might the Bible contain some colorful myths?

neologist wrote:

Adam and Eve had free will and only one rule to follow. The significance of that rule lies in God's right to set standards for his creation. And yes, they did die. The sentence of death was pronounced on that very same day and they died in the very same creative day in which they sinned.

According to the Bible, Adam lived for 930 years, at least 800 of which were after they were banished from Eden. To say that it was the same "creative day" is ridiculous.

Quote:

If Adam and Eve never existed, then the Bible is obviously not God's inspired word. Hence, there is no hell. If the bible is God's word, a careful reading will reveal that there is no hell. So, as far as this thread is concerned, I'm right on target.

The story of Adam and Eve is a myth. A belief in God may have inspired the writers of the Bible, but it certainly is not God's Word verbatim any more than the Quran is (sorry raheel). There are too many contradictions, inconsistencies, errors, questionable morality, dubious history, and pointless and tedious passages on who begat who, temple inventories, etc.

The OT is neither proof nor disproof of the possible existence of hell, whether or not it was inspired by God. The NT is quite explicit about the existence of hell, and the certainty of non-believers ending up there.

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neologist wrote:

Even today, the flim and flam continues. I once knew a person who had in his possession an interesting artifact, a belt buckle worn by a German soldier in WW2. It was inscribed with the words, "Gott mit uns." (God is with us.) That German soldier was almost certainly a Catholic or a Lutheran who believed that his god would prevail over the god of the Catholics and Lutherans fighting for the enemy. Who do you think fed him that crock of shinola?

Why wouldn't he believe that God was on the German side? They were doing God's Work in the best traditions of the Bible.

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neologist wrote:

Far be it from me to monopolize the rubbish and scorn.

No one has here referred to your personal opinions as "recondite rubbish," so that was not called for in the least. That i mocked scripture was precisely for a point--that as opposed to offering an argument from a considered point of view, developed from observation, philosophy and experience, those who quote "holy writ" are elliptically asserting that it constitutes authority, which it does not; and they are abdicating their potential for determining things for themselves. So i certainly scorn scriptural injunction and admonition--and have read enough scripture, christian and otherwise to know that virtually any argument, any justification can be fabricated therefrom. If you thought what i wrote was rubbish, you may well imagine then exactly how quoting chapter and verse sounds to me.

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An argument based on the bible may be refuted in just two ways, as I see it:

At least three, if not more, since you don't or are not willing to see that the book in question is purported to be divinely inspired, not demonstrated to have been--and as such, has no more force than anectdotal information. It is hearsay. More than that, it is a simple matter to find every idea expressed in that book elsewhere of an earlier date, and many of the "story lines" were lifted wholesale from other peoples' earlier legends and tales. That book is the quintessence of unreliable folk lore mascarading as divine writ.

Quote:

Either 1] It's not correct according to the bible,

See my remarks above--it is possible to argue virtually anything from scripture, and that which derives from a questionable source cannot be said to be correct simply because it is justifiable appeal to that questionable source.

Quote:

or 2] It's not correct because it is based on the bible.

Once again, as i have so often seen among the religiously, politically or ideologically convinced, other possiblities do not occur--it is either black or white. An argument may be correct, despite some confection from scripture having been adduced as the support. Even a stopped clock is correct twice daily.

The point about both of your absolute and polar statements here is that scriptural sources are not relevant to the value of an argument. Were an argument based upon scripture demonstrated to be either correct or incorrect, the scriptural reference would be coincidental to the outcome.

Quote:

I assert my argument is at the least correct according to the bible.

See my remarks above regarding the ease with which propositions may be based upon scripture.

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It's not my place to say whether you believe the bible is rubbish, however much I may think so.

I don't think that book is rubbish--i think the notion that it is divinely revealed truth to be rubbish.

Quote:

You obviously are light years ahead of me in intellect.

I have made no such assertion, and it is a non sequitur in such a discussion. It's only purpose is to set up the denying sentence which follows:

Quote:

However, the bible was written so ordinary bumbleheads like me would be able to find our way in this screwed up world.

Actually, the most plausible explanation for having written the book was that the Hebrews, embarrassed to discover what a pack of clueless tribal hillbillies they were after they had been removed from their homeland during the Babylonian captivity, became eager to have one of the great appurtenances of culture which they discovered while they were there--a written historical and religious legacy. So very much of what is contained in that book has a clearly Akkadian provenance, that it is ridiculous to assert that it is divinely inspired--because its contents could not then be reconciled with their sources, the legends of the semitic Akkadians and the Aryan Medes, as the theology of the book would demand that these be considered the word of false gods. The contention that the old testament was written as a guide for the behavior of individuals is no older than John Calvin and his Institutes of the Christian Church. No one was making such a claim in the era in which it was written.

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Terry wrote:

Neologist, you failed to answer my questions:

How could Adam and Eve be blamed for an action they took before they supposedly had any concept of good, evil, or sin?

I don't suppose you'll believe any of what I have to say but Adam and Eve had a built in conscience. The only rule they had was regarding the eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. When they disobeyed, they did get to decide good and bad for themselves from that point on. That hasn't been such a good deal for them or us, however.

Terry wrote:

How did they modify their own genomes to produce an inheritable imperfection?

They didn't.

Terry wrote:

And if they did, why didn't God correct the flaw so that each generation would have the same opportunity to choose for themselves?

God provided the remedy in Genesis 3:15.

Terry wrote:

The serpent told them the truth. If you do not believe that, tell me in what way he deceived them.

They actually did die in the same creative day. How long were the creative days? They were not days in the literal sense; so I'll give you a hint: The seventh day is not yet over.

Terry wrote:

Why do you suppose that God lied to them?

He didn't.

Terry wrote:

Why would God want them to remain naked and ignorant of morality forever?

Who said they were supposed to remain naked? But they were not ignorant of morality. They knew it was wrong to steal, rape, murder, etc.

Terry wrote:

Where did the serpent get its knowledge? Do you think that God forbade it to eat the fruit but it disobeyed as well?

Well, obviously the serpent hadn't just fallen off the turnip truck, either.

Terry wrote:

Do you really believe in talking snakes, magical fruit, and God imposing the death penalty for choosing knowledge over ignorance, or might the Bible contain some colorful myths?

I believe it possible that Satan made it appear that the serpent was talking. The fruit was not magic. It represented God's right to set standards for humankind. So eating it was more than just eating poison.

neologist wrote:

Adam and Eve had free will and only one rule to follow. The significance of that rule lies in God's right to set standards for his creation. And yes, they did die. The sentence of death was pronounced on that very same day and they died in the very same creative day in which they sinned.

Terry wrote:

According to the Bible, Adam lived for 930 years, at least 800 of which were after they were banished from Eden. To say that it was the same "creative day" is ridiculous.

Beside being within the same creative day, the 930 years were well within the length of a prophetic day, often referred to as a thousand years.
I'm editing the post here because, to be correct, the prophetic day is most commonly considered to be one year. However, the length of a day in the bible varies according to context. For example, the apostle Peter writes that "one day is with God as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." (2Pe 3:8)

Quote:

If Adam and Eve never existed, then the Bible is obviously not God's inspired word. Hence, there is no hell. If the bible is God's word, a careful reading will reveal that there is no hell. So, as far as this thread is concerned, I'm right on target.

Terry wrote:

The story of Adam and Eve is a myth. A belief in God may have inspired the writers of the Bible, but it certainly is not God's Word verbatim any more than the Quran is (sorry raheel). There are too many contradictions, inconsistencies, errors, questionable morality, dubious history, and pointless and tedious passages on who begat who, temple inventories, etc. The OT is neither proof nor disproof of the possible existence of hell, whether or not it was inspired by God.

So, as far as the OT is concerned, there is no hell, EH?

Terry wrote:

The NT is quite explicit about the existence of hell, and the certainty of non-believers ending up there.

None of the NT words translated as hell refer to a place of eternal torment. The book of revelation clearly states that death and hades will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed.
Read my signature. My issue is with those who have obfuscated what the bible really says.

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Guys. Keep turning up the heat. It really helps me to collect my thoughts. You haven't convinced me of anything yet. Perhaps you never will. But this discourse has helped me to understand how you think.

And I'm sorry to have disrespected any of you. But give me a break. Spiro was my hero! Pusillanimous pussyfooters! Nattering nabobs of negativism! What classics!

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Terry wrote:

Why wouldn't he believe that God was on the German side? They were doing God's Work in the best traditions of the Bible.

Well, He obviously wasn't. They lost. Right?

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Setanta wrote:

Quote:
Either 1] It's not correct according to the bible,

See my remarks above--it is possible to argue virtually anything from scripture, and that which derives from a questionable source cannot be said to be correct simply because it is justifiable appeal to that questionable source.

I'll have to disagree with you on that. If the bible IS in fact God's word. There can't be any inconsistencies. The parts have to be harmonious. The bible claims to be the truth in several places, but notably at 2nd Timothy 3:16. So, if you don't believe the entire bible, the whole message is tainted. which leads us to:

Quote:

or 2] It's not correct because it is based on the bible.

Quote:

Once again, as i have so often seen among the religiously, politically or ideologically convinced, other possiblities do not occur--it is either black or white. An argument may be correct, despite some confection from scripture having been adduced as the support. Even a stopped clock is correct twice daily.

The point about both of your absolute and polar statements here is that scriptural sources are not relevant to the value of an argument. Were an argument based upon scripture demonstrated to be either correct or incorrect, the scriptural reference would be coincidental to the outcome.

As far as I'm concerned, if the bible is not God's word, the fact that it might contain some truths would make it only an anecdotal source and unreliable at that.

The bible has been subject to considerable obfuscation by power hungry religious and political leaders. Inside it all is an important message for mankind.

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If God is everywhere

then where should we look for the word of God?

Where did He go?
Perhaps we just closed our spiritual eyes,
or forgot to look around ... at everything all at the same time.

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You're All Going to Hell!

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