Should people have the right to make bad decisions?

"Some privacy issues" is a masterpiece of understatement. Just how would you go about preventing bad decisions? For that matter, how do you go about determining what makes a bad decision?

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hmmm.... I can't decide. Twisted Evil

But seriously, as the prior poster noted:

Who would decide what is a "bad decision"?

George Bush? Michael Moore? ummm Saddam Hussein?

How would you like every decision you were making sent to some committee before you could follow through and do it in your life?

And who decides who is on this committee?

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The state attempts to prevent people from making bad decisions all the time. Those attempts are called "laws."

For instance, it would be a bad decision to drive 80 mph on a residential side-street. It would be a bad decision to run naked through a shopping mall in the middle of the day. It would be a bad decision to build your own thermonuclear device. These are all bad decisions, and the state sees it that way too. That's why they're not just bad decisions, they're illegal.

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I got a story to tell, joe. Way back, when the earth was much younger, I had an algebra teacher who let us vote on the answer to what was then called a word problem. His point? The majority may rule; that doesn't make the majority right.

Your examples, of course, are indeed bad decisions, depending on exactly who the runner might be.

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Good points all, Joe. And to indulge in what has by now become a tired old saw, but amuses me still: gravity is not just a good idea, it's the law.

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Joe: But that's exactly my point. Why are some "bad decisions" legislated, and some aren't? The line appears to be drawn at those decisions that are harmful to others, but there are still some laws preventing, say, suicide. Why some of these mistakes, and not others?

Extra Medium: That also came up in the argument: Who decides what's right and wrong? I would say the smart people, but again, who defines smart?

Thanks for the input.

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There are still some laws that pickles must bounce (and such). Some laws are bad decisions, and we should probably legislate against them.

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Where do you all stand on this? Should people be allowed to make bad decisions like suicide, etc?

Taliesin181- And herein lies the problem. You are so certain that suicide is a bad decision that you used it as an example for your thesis. Now, I happen not to think that suicide is NECESSARILY a bad decision. In some cases, I believe that it is a perfectly resonable one.

The point that I am making, is that IMO, people are the "captains of their ship", and are certainly entitled to run their own lives, even what they do appears to be bad decisions, in the opinion of other people.

Where there is a problem, is where the decisions impact adversely on other people, and that's where the law takes over.

For example, if you are living alone in a filthy house, never take a bath, and cover your floor with collections of useless objects, that is your right. On the other hand, if your child is living in the house, and her health is affected by what you do, the law has the right to step in. Where is the line that the law must draw when it comes to invading privacy that is appropriate for the greater good?

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Phoenix said:

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Now, I happen not to think that suicide is NECESSARILY a bad decision. In some cases, I believe that it is a perfectly resonable one.

Well, that's interesting. What, in your opinion, is a case where suicide is a reasonable option? I should probably modify my thesis to point out that I don't have a problem with suicide if you're incapacitated beyond all hope of recovery, but this "recreational" style of suicide is ridiculous. Is that the situation you were allowing for? Thanks for the response.

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Taliesin181 wrote:

Joe: But that's exactly my point. Why are some "bad decisions" legislated, and some aren't? The line appears to be drawn at those decisions that are harmful to others, but there are still some laws preventing, say, suicide. Why some of these mistakes, and not others?

Quite right. My response was directed more at the question "do people have the right to make bad decisions" rather than the question "should people have the right to make bad decisions." I was directing my comments more at those who think that no one is qualified to prohibit such bad decisions; I apologize for wandering off-topic.

Despite my slight detour, I consider your initial question worth exploring. As it stands now, the state typically prohibits behavior that is potentially harmful to others, but it also prohibits behavior that is potentially harmful only to the person who initiates that behavior (although, contrary to what you might think, there are no laws against suicide). So, for instance, many states have laws that require car drivers to wear seat belts and motorcycle riders to wear helmets. Although such laws have been defended on the grounds of social welfare (lowering overall health care costs, for example), the main purpose behind such laws is to protect people from their own dumb decisions.

Those laws may have a benevolent intent and a beneficial result, but neither the intent nor the result are, in my view, sufficient reasons for laws that infringe on every person's inalienable right to be as stupid as they can be. On the other hand, I don't think people, in some semi-mythical state of nature, formed governments solely for their protection against others. Contrary to Locke and Hobbes, I think that people also sought the benefits of government in order to protect themselves against themselves. And if that's the case, then laws prohibiting people from making bad decisions are perfectly consistent with the nature and aims of government.

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Taliesin181- I was once in a situation where the medical profession believed that I had a terminal illness. I prepared to commit suicide, if and when it reached a point, where no more could be done for me, and the end of my life would be a series of one miserable day after another. Happily, that never occurred, so here I am.

Even now, simply because I DO love life, that I would consider suicide. If I knew that I was developing Alzheimer's disease, I would kill myself while I still had my wits about me. Ditto any condition where the course was inexorably downhill.

I don't know what you mean by "recreational" style of suicide. I don't think that any sane person kills themselves for "fun". If a person is depressed, it is up to family and friends to help the person get assistance with their problem. If the problem is chronic, and the person is perpetually miserable, I think that such a person will attempt suicide until he finally gets to his goal. I don't think that that is such a bad thing.

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Isn't a 'bad decision' synonymous with a 'mistake'? And wouldn't that make this inquiry synonymous with "should people be allowed to make mistakes?"

If you want to talk specifically about suicide, that's one thing. But phrased more generally, as the initial question was, I think the answer is fairly obvious - of course people should be "allowed" to make bad decisions: it's part of life.

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Only up to that point at which the making of such bad decisions impinges upon others in society.

By the by, Nietzsche, i just wanted to say that Thus Spake Zarathustra was florid and badly written. Come on, you can do better than that!

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Phoenix said:

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I don't know what you mean by "recreational" style of suicide. I don't think that any sane person kills themselves for "fun". If a person is depressed, it is up to family and friends to help the person get assistance with their problem. If the problem is chronic, and the person is perpetually miserable, I think that such a person will attempt suicide until he finally gets to his goal. I don't think that that is such a bad thing.

I disagree. I find these type of suicides to be reprehensible and selfish. They might spare themselves the pain, but they exact it tenfold on all the people in their lives. And as far as the "for fun" comment goes, there are suicide pacts and supposedly romantic double-suicides practiced by teenagers all over America, and I think that is truly moronic. There's too much to live for to kill yourself over something tiny. If you're depressed, seek help, and you will get better if you want to.

Now, that being said, I do agree with your comments about degenerative illness, and I would probably kill myself if the time I had left would demean the time I had before, i.e. the Schavio case.

Ech. Even saying her name left a bad taste in my mouth. I hate the media sometimes. Rolling Eyes

Joe said:

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although, contrary to what you might think, there are no laws against suicide

Really? I could have sworn there were. Damn.
Back to the topic, I agree with you that there are some things that the government was created to control in society, like education, but I think they fall short. The point of education is to enlighten the citizens and teach them to get by(in other words, not be stupid :wink: ), but there are now laws that counter-act this, like the law that was passed that banned evolution from being taught(I've forgotten where this was passed), and the laws that prohibit religion from being passed(I think everyone could do with a bit of both, then decide for themselves).

I think sometimes government doesn't do enough in the education department, and that enablement of stupidity is a good argument for disallowing bad decisions.

Thanks for the responses, guys; this is enlightening and fun. :wink:

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Taliesin181 wrote:

Joe said:

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although, contrary to what you might think, there are no laws against suicide

Really? I could have sworn there were. Damn.

Old joke:
Q: What's the punishment for suicide?
A: Life imprisonment.
Q: What's the punishment for attempted suicide?
A: Hanging.

Cecil Adams explains all.

Taliesin181 wrote:

I think sometimes government doesn't do enough in the education department, and that enablement of stupidity is a good argument for disallowing bad decisions.

I'm not sure I understand you here. What are you trying to say?

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Joe: Sorry, I had some trouble with making that paragraph. Allow me to clarify.

I think, since we do enforce education, which can be described as a deterrent for making bad decisions, that we should therefore prevent people from making other permanently bad decisions.

What I mean by "permanently bad" are things like suicide, refusal to be educated(at the college-level as well as the primary education level), etc. The only problems with this are that first, I have no idea how to prevent these things(as you said, the notion of punishing suicide is a little ridiculous), and second, as Phoenix and others have said, who decides which things are "bad"? I freely acknowledge that I'm not perfect, so that begs the question: who should decides?

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Taliesin181 - I think that depressed teenagers are a big problem, and needs to be addressed. As I have said in another thread,

"Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem".

The problem with teenagers is that they have not had the maturity and experience to develop a workable repitoire of coping skills. In the cases of very young people, I think that intervention and assistance is entirely appropriate.

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And as far as the "for fun" comment goes, there are suicide pacts and supposedly romantic double-suicides practiced by teenagers all over America, and I think that is truly moronic.

I know that there is a problem, but you make it sound like an epidemic. I really doubt that there are many double suicide pacts that succeed. Have you got any figures?

In ANY suicide, as in natural deaths, other people are affected, but I don't think that should the major consideration in making a decision to kill yourself. I think that the individuals involved in the suicide has a perfect right to do with their lives as they see fit.

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Phoenix said:

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I know that there is a problem, but you make it sound like an epidemic. I really doubt that there are many double suicide pacts that succeed. Have you got any figures?

Nah, I guess I'm just hyperbolizing(If that's a word). As you said, it is a problem, but I don't really have the figures to support this.

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In ANY suicide, as in natural deaths, other people are affected, but I don't think that should the major consideration in making a decision to kill yourself. I think that the individuals involved in the suicide has a perfect right to do with their lives as they see fit.

I suppose that's the point on which we disagree. I see it as harmful to society, and therefore I think it shouldn't happen, but you see it as an individual choice, and therefore a private matter. I think that, since it does harm others, that it should go under the corresponding category, but as we've agreed, there are circumstances in which living creates more pain. I just wish that more people could think on the matter before acting.

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It is impossible to ban all bad decisions, too many of them are made. Perhaps if the human race were a little smarter it could be done.

Taliesin181 wrote:

I disagree. I find these type of suicides to be reprehensible and selfish. They might spare themselves the pain, but they exact it tenfold on all the people in their lives.

Is it not even more selfish to hold a person's value to yourself in higher esteem then the quality of their life. If I am friends with someone I will trust in their judgement enough to respect the decisions they make about their own life, up to and including ending it. I'd be pissed off that they didn't trust me enough to discuss it with me. I'd miss them, certainly.

In the end though it's their life and I am not selfish enough to hold their decision against them. (If they didn't run up a huge credit card debt though before committing suicide then I'll be dissapointed in them).

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And as far as the "for fun" comment goes, there are suicide pacts and supposedly romantic double-suicides practiced by teenagers all over America, and I think that is truly moronic.

Uncle Darwin in action?

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There's too much to live for to kill yourself over something tiny. If you're depressed, seek help, and you will get better if you want to.

Key words. "If you want to". What if you don't want to? What if you want to cease existing?

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I would probably kill myself if the time I had left would demean the time I had before

I have made the decision that should I at any time objectively weigh my future life as unworthy of living I'll commit suicide. This is of course subject to my standard rule of never making life-influencing decisions in states of extreme emotion. Plus I'd make sure to live long enough to profit from the knowledge of my future death (hello credit companies).

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Should people have the right to make bad decisions?

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