People,people,people!!!. C'mere, the church wasn't founded so that it could draw up a plan for us to lead the way we all want to lead it. The church isn't supposed conform to the peoples ideals, it conforms to what it interprets to be the truth from the bible. PEOPLE on the other hand conform (if they so wish) to what their church preaches. This doesn't apply solely to catholicism but pretty much every religion and sub-denomination in existence (apart from the obvious ones).
Asking the church to reform its attitudes to homosexuality for example is akin to a passage in the bible stating that "And Jesus said to Peter "Stop stuffing Paul-its dirty!!!. Thomas spoke up" I doubt that'll happen!!". To which Jesus replied, " OK if I change my mind and say its OK to turd burgle Paul, Peter will you follow me then?" ( Please, please forgive me BIG MAN, was making a point!!!)
Lets cop on here. What do you expect a liberal pope to do? Someone said an African pope would've been better. Because then he could highlight the problems in Africa. What a load of bullshit!!!. We all know the problems in Africa already - hello!!!. Jesus!!!, did people expect that a new liberal pope would single handedly wipe out poverty and aids in 3rd world countries?
If people are so strictly adhering to the policy of not using contraception, then maybe the should stick to the teaching of no sex before marriage just as stringently. This would cut down on the cases of aids quite significantly - not totally as I realise there are children born every day, unfortunately, with aids.
Look the church are trying to adhere to the teaching of the bible, to expect them to contradict what the bible teaches on so many questions of morality is both naive and, well stupid. As Lash rightly put it, if you don't like the way the church is going, well nobody is trying to stop you leaving?
Things go full circle in life, the Catholic church will continue to decline, because people want a Church that suits there personal needs - but thats tough it won't happen. Even in decline, the Catholic Church will be here long after you're gone. But bear in mind the Catholic Church was in "decline" at the time of the reformation. Full circle!!!
No plan was ever "drawn up" for the Bishop of Rome to the an all powerful primate passing on matters of doctrine, and establishing rules of universal conduct. Such powers were simply usurped by the Bishops of Rome in the power vacuum of the Gothic era church.
Rules being drawn up is a very poor choice of terms.
Setanta wrote:No plan was ever "drawn up" for the Bishop of Rome to the an all powerful primate passing on matters of doctrine, and establishing rules of universal conduct. Such powers were simply usurped by the Bishops of Rome in the power vacuum of the Gothic era church.
Rules being drawn up is a very poor choice of terms.
OK....and if people don't like it? Walk away!!!. I'm not a practising Catholic but from were I stand the church would be better off if all these "dissenters" just left, atleast then they'd be left with a unified church - no matter how small!!!
Lash wrote:
What I don't quite understand, is if the Popes are just trying to maintain what is written in the Bible, and some Catholics don't like it--why don't they find a church that they agree with instead of trying to change the one that teaches stuff they don't believe.
Maybe this will help your understanding, Lash... the Bible is amazingly contradictory, haven't you noticed? The Catholic Mass centers on readings from the N.T. which is mainly a treatise on loving one another.
The O.T. strictures re. homosexuality are in the same chapters with rules on stoning your sons & daughters, not eating pork, etc. This picking and choosing of what to follow from the Bible is extraordinarily arbitrary.
Last night I watched Christina Odone and a Catholic priest tearing lumps out of each other about whether the old new pope is a good thing or bad thing, then switched channels to find one bunch of Muslims attacking another group because voting in the general election is "un-Islamic".
I am heartily sick of medieval mind sets intruding on every day life and on my tv. Its time to fight fire with fire.
And we watched Luther last night. I feel a religious
revolution is in order
Reminds me of Donovan Leitch (of Mellow Yellow fame) showing his true Protestant colors in his 1971 album Open Road:
Poke at the Pope, Donavon P. Leitch
Have you ever seen a picture of Pope Paul?
Have you ever asked yourself this question:
Would you trust this man with your soul, now?
Would you trust this man, ask yourself.
His eyes are sunken and his cheeks are hollow.
While you dig the poor of the world they follow
Him, hoarding all that gold in the Vatican.
Would you trust this man, ask yourself.
Great song, and he doesn't even have to change the lyrics for the new pope.
Great song Setanta.
Ratzi would certainly condemn Donovan for his Atlantis new age flirtations, among other things.
Let us not even mention fourteen year old girls . . .
Oops, i mentioned it . . .
There are as many ideas about God as there are people who have ideas about God.
But when one person persuades or coerces another into conformity, that is simply a method of control, and it manifests itself in organised religion.
Well it wouldn't surprise me. Popes have done worse things in the past
only 10 benedicts ago...
Benedict VI (973 - 974): Not much is known about Pope Benedict VI except that he came to a violent end. When his protector, Emperor Otto the Great, died, the Roman citizens rebelled against Benedict and he was strangled by a priest on the orders of Crescentius, a brother of the late Pope John XIII and the son of the Theodora. Boniface Franco, a deacon who helped Crescentius, was made pope and called himself Boniface VII. Boniface, however, had to flee Rome because the people were so outraged that a pope had been strangled to death in such a manner.
yeah, given the history of the popes it seems to be a rather dangerous job...
Setanta -- I'm glad that your experience with Catholic Charities re-inforces the experience my family had. A representative of the group stopped by about every third week with some canned goods or rice for the kids. Just checked to see if everything was ok. Loved it as a mother stuck in MA.
I hate to say it but whatever failings previous Benedicts had, all one has to do is consider their historical context. There have been married popes and hot pants popes who fathered slews of kids and warrior popes and cowardly popes.
The first Benedict was a ground breaker in church history and the last Benedict held neutral ground during WWI.
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As for the church relying on the Bible, well, as someone who went to Catholic schools from 1st grade through a BA, I never saw a Bible, even when I took Bible history as a theology class in college.
I received yesterday this email:
Karl Rahner, Hans Kung and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger all die on the same day, and go to meet St. Peter to know their fate.
St. Peter approaches the three of them, and tells them that he will interview each of them to discuss their views on various issues.
He then points at Rahner and says "Karl! In my office..." After 4 hours, the door opens, and Rahner comes stumbling out of St. Peter's office. He is highly distraught, and is mumbling things like "Oh God, that was the hardest thing I've ever done! How could I have been so wrong! So sorry...never knew..." He stumbles off into Heaven, a testament to the mercy of Our God.
St. Peter follows him out, and sticks his finger in Kung's direction and "Hans! You're next..." After 8 hours, the door opens, and Kung comes out, barely able to stand. He is near collapse with weakness and a crushed spirit. He , too, is mumbling things like "Oh God, that was the hardest thing I've ever done! How could I have been so wrong! So sorry...never knew..." He stumbles off into Heaven, a testament to the mercy of Our God.
Lastly, St. Peter, emerging from his office, says to Cardinal Ratzinger, "Joseph, your turn." TWELVE HOURS LATER, St. Peter stumbles out the door, apparently exhausted, saying "Oh God, that's the hardest thing I've ever done..."
Frontpages from Great Britain:
That's a
great joke, fbaezer - hadda wipe coffee spray off my monitor
Fbaezer~
Best laugh I've had in a while!
Piffka--
Maybe I was mistaken, but I didn't know any Pope had OK'd abortion, gay issues (none of 'em, I don't think--except they don't kill them anymore), or even birth control. I remember a buzz over Vatican II, but I don't remember what the modifications were. Has any Pope agreed with ordination of women?
If I'm correct that no substantial modernity has caught on, that is what causes me to wonder why people are so intent on changing a church which is obviously not going to change. If I'm incorrect, and there have been Popes in the past who have agreed with these contemporary alterations in Catholic tradition, then I can understand why some are holding out for changes.
I'm not passing a judgement of any kind--or even forwarding my opinion on what should happen. I'm not Catholic. I just wonder why so many dissaffected people don't find a religion more suitable to their tastes.
