Catholic Church Now Accepts Gays

Re: Bible Chat



Well I suspect you will soon find out that many folks here at A2K do not consider "faith" (especially lots of it) to be an asset of any sort.

"Faith"....in a religious context...is merely someone making a guess about the REALITY of existence (having a belief)....and then for no logical reason that the guess is correct (having faith).

No big deal.

All one has to do is be afraid of the unknown...and making a guess comes easy. Then all one has to do is to be hard-headed....and "insisting that it is correct" comes even easier.

I tend to "speak English." I hope that all was plain enough. :wink:

Faith
Frank,

I mean this sincerely. I feel very sorry for you. You seem to be a very intelligent man. But to lack faith to me is to lack hope. If you don't have hope, what do you have?

I totally disagree with you on faith being a guess. It's not a guess. My faith sustains me through this life. With my faith, I have trust, hope, happiness, and more. I wish you could feel what I feel and then you would know it's not a guess.

I am not going to continue to banter back and forth with you about this. I get the feeling you enjoy it too much. I only did it because I wanted to share my views. But, I meant what I said, I am going to pray for you. That's the best thing you can do for anyone; asking God to open their hearts and let them see what faith is all about.

You take care and you will be in my prayers.

Momma Angel

Re: Faith


I understand. I feel very sorry for you....so I honestly do understand.




I have reality.




"Belief" is the guess; "faith" is simply the silly insistance that the guess is correct.

EXAMPLE: You make a guess that the Bible contains the word of God...that it tells you what God is like...and what God expects of you.

And you disguise the fact that you are making such a guess...by calling it a "belief."

Then...you insist that the guess is correct by saying that you "have faith."

It is an absurd undertaking...most likely occasioned by fear of the unknown.




Good. And I thank you for the sentiment you are expressing. I don't do any "praying"....but I will wish and hope that all goes well for you too, Momma.

One Last Thought
Frank,

There is one more thing I would like to say. I do not recall, in anything I have posted, calling anything you have said, an absurd undertaking, silly insistence, etc. What I have done is stated what I believe and expected the same from you. I find it very ironic that someone with as much intelligence as you appear to have cannot or will not (since I don't know which it is) show enough courtesy to someone to at least say that it is your opinion, feeling, etc. Don't you realize that in stating it the way you do, you totally discount anyone else's belief system. I did not say to you "my belief is the only way." I do not force my beliefs on anyone. I share them. I just thought you might like to readdress the way you state some things.

Momma Angel

Re: One Last Thought


What are you talking about?

If I offer my opinion....and if my opinion is that something is silly or absurd...how the hell can I offer it without using those words?




I couldn't care less about your "belief system." What you guess about the unknown is your business. If you want to discuss it in public...with me or with anyone else who reads what you write....then I will accomodate you.

That is the courteous thing to do.

And so is telling the truth.




Well...unless you are asking me to lie....I will stick with what I have said. If you have a specific example of something with which you disagree...bring it up and we can discuss it.

Ooops!
Frank,

Look, I did not mean to upset you. What I meant was this, I do not consider your opinions silly or absured. If they are yours then they are important to you and any person should respect that, and I do respect that. So, please accept my apology. I am not asking anyone to lie.

Momma Angel

Now, lighten up, there, Momma Angel - Frank ain't upset. Believe me, he ain't upset. I've seen Frank upset, and this ain't even close.

Seriously, all Frank is asking of you is to refute his argument - in forensically valid manner. The object here is the exchange of ideas and viewpoints, as opposed to "winning" or "losing", or changing anyone's mind. This isn't a groupthink "Me too" sort of discussion forum, its one in which divergent positions are presented, examined, and commented upon, both positively and negatively - we're talking debate here. If one presents a position, one may expect it to be challenged, and expect and be prepared to support that position in forensically valid manner. An appeal to emotion just ain't gonna cut it for some folks, and for other folks, that's all they've got, and when that is rejected, they sometimes react emotionally and feel they themselves have been rejected. Nothing could be further from the truth. The argument, the statement, the assertion, has been rejected, not the presenter. Should one's position be rejected, one might better employ a different presentation than to concede defeat and allow one's adversary to claim victory by default. In such a circumstance, nobody has "won", or lost, really, but one of the participants has failed to meet challenge, while the other remains unchallenged. Why forfeit an argument about which you feel strongly?

Demonstrate what you percieve to be the flaws in Frank's position - show what you think are the errors. That's what Frank is doing - showing you what he thinkis are the flaws and errors in your argument. Show him, objectively, dispassionately, logically, and reasonably, that and where he's wrong.

Frank
Well, I am glad that Frank is not upset.

As to refuting his argument with forsenic evidence, can't do that. No DNA, no blood evidence, etc. Like I said, it's all based on faith.

Thanx for your input! I do appreciate it.

Momma Angel

Marsey dotes and doesey dotes and little lambsy divy....a kiddlede divey too wouldn't you?




Just wanted to show you that I am not upset.

Really...like Timber said....I'm jest discussin'.


I apologize for any discomfort my comments caused you. They truly were aimed at ideas....rather than at you...or anyone.

Hope you stick around....and get involved. You do an excellent job of presenting your comments....and I like the way you deal with things.

And really....if you have a specific item that you disagree with....bring it up. Let's talk about it.

Re: Frank
MA, the rubber hits the road with the Resurrection. Everything centers on that. It has little to do with feelings or how old Christianity is (Judaism and Hinduism are older). Let the doubters read WHO MOVED THE STONE?, written by a lawyer who had started out by intending to disprove the validity of the Gospels, using the same methods as are used in legal analysis/courtroom litigation. In the process, he became converted. The evidence COMPELLED him to yield to the One Who is Truth.

Re: Frank


Nonsense.

Anyone who comes to any definite conclusions based on the evidence available is kidding him/herself.


The evidence simply is not there.

That, of course, would not stop people from writing books...or for that matter....from being deluded.

Re: Frank
LOL, Frank, you remind me for all the world of Saul of Tarsus: "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.' "

Keep on kickin,' Frank, keep on kickin...

(PS: my post was directed to MA, as you will note, if you read it carefully)

Re: Frank


So what? Its a public forum, after all. Anything posted is there for all to see, and for all to interact with, the way I figure it. I'd venture to say Frank carefully read, fully comprehended, and determined the premis as set forth ill-put, unsupported, anecdotal, circularly referential, and absurd. Poselytizing and preaching is neither argument nor discussion; it is a closed-end retreat behind aphorisms, platitudes, and fairytales.

Per arguendo, assuming there is a debate here, a response such as that to which Frank responded constitutes a tacit forfeit of the contest. Continuing arguendo, assuming there is a discussion here, the proposition as set forth constittes an irrelevancy, wholly unconnected with the thoughts and ideas at discussion.

BTW, the author of Who Moved The Stone was Albert Henry Ross, writing under the psuedonym Frank Morison. Not a lawyer, but a novelist, with pretensions of being an historian, Ross was lifelong a staunch apologist for Christianity, a frequent lecturer at the subject throughout the circuit given to those entertainments. Who Moved The Stone is less a journalistic account of a personal journey to fulfilment than an engagingly told tale larded heavily with non sequitorial biblical reference, questionable interpretation, and suspect history - to put it charitably. An Englishman, he died arouind fifty years ago, remembered by few outsaide of Christian Apologists. His one "Serious" work, War on Great Cities: A Study of the Facts is a classic study of misinterpretation, faulty reason, historical inaccuracy, and all-around hokum. As military history goes, its right there with anything from Marvel Comics or Betty Crocker.

I am indeed familiar with his Christian Apologetics work, and that of Strobel, Greenleaf, McDowell, and others of like kind, who point to Ross/Morison as an influence, mentor, and/or paragon. I have an opinion regarding their contributions to the assembled knowledge of humankind as well. A very similar opinion.

If you're really interested in Christian Apologetics, I believe you'll find C. S. Lewis or Alvin Plantinga of far more value, though they do not write in so accessible, engaging and entertaining a manner as Ross/Morison, et al, they at least approach the matter in scholarly fashion, developing and demonstrating lucid thought and well-structured reasoning drawn from rigorous study, and present same in absolute intellectual honesty. That sort I may not agree with, but I have to respect. They don't pretend, parrot, preach, or proselytize, they argue, and argue well.

Re: Frank


Quite a step down for me.

Normally I remind people of Jesus Christ. You'd be amazed at how many people have said things to me like: "Jesus Christ, are you back again!"





Paul was a self-promoter.

Too bad he hi-jacked the message of Jesus and screwed it up as badly as he did. Jesus had many reasonable, edifying thoughts to share. All indications are that Paul was pretty much a nut case trying to rid himself of the demons he supposed caused his sexual problems.

As you noted, Paul was very f****d up before he decided to latch on to this new religion...and he was very f****d up after the change. He just channeled his misery and self-loathing in a different direction.

Interesting that when you ask a Christian why he "believes" such and such....he or she is much, much, much more likely to quote something Paul said than anything Jesus said.




I ain't goin' nowhere, no how. Keep diggin', Dias...I'll be here to watch and comment.





You've got over 200 posts, Diag. By now you must realize what Timber just pointed out...that when you post in A2K...you are directing your comments to everyone here.

Frank
Frank,

I really appreciate what you posted. It may have taken us a couple of postings to get the "feel" of each other but I think we have gotten the wrinkles ironed out enough that we both (I hope) feel more comfortable.

It's pretty obvious that I am not as well read as you are, at least obvious to me. I do appreciate the views you shared. I think I did take it that you were aiming it at me and I am really glad I was wrong about that!

I was considering not sticking around because I tend to feel a bit intimidated by someone as well read and knowledgeable as you, but I AM going to stick around. Your last post really gave me a good feeling. But, you can bet I am going to address Diagknowz.

Thanx Again!

Momma Angel

To Diagnowz
Ooops! Sorry, I meant I was going to address Timber's comments for sure.

As for your comments Right On! That is where the rubber meets the road. When it all comes down to it Jesus is the Truth, The Way, the Life, and the Light. You get no arguments from me!

Timber, I'm going to have to think awhile before I address your post. The last thing I want to do is lash back because I feel lashed at.

But, guaranteed, I will address what you posted!

Diagknowz, have you read Max Lucado's "No Wonder They Call Him the Savior?" Something tells me you have!

Have a nice day everyone!

Momma Angel

Re: To Diagnowz


No, M.A., haven't. Just the WORD itself, which is a lifelong project! :wink: But I do get superb spiritual aerobics from the journals and newsletters put out by SCP. Crack outfit, that!

No Wonder They Call Him The Savior
Di,

You would love Max Lucado's books. He takes everything strictly from scripture. This book was a tremendous help in my life. It really put things into perspective. I learned just how silly things like anger are. He has written many books and it is so comforting to read things that are uplifting and praise the Lord. I get so tired of all the cussing, violence, etc.

Momma Angel

Re: No Wonder They Call Him The Savior


M.A., we're getting off-topic, so I'm going to answer your post in a different thread. Look for it: "Weary of the Brutishness of the Modern Mind." (Be prepared for possible trolls, sigh...But that is standard here as elsewhere at forums.)

And on the original topic...Didn't the Catholic Church always have a "Don't ask, don't tell, don't persue," policy with their priests, anyway?