Women of a certain age.

No catapulting when I met you, Osso. In thinking back, I wish I'd been sitting across from you instead of next to you. I would have preferred to see your whole face when we talked. Sorry to say I remember how you look mostly in profile. However, this didn't detract from the conversation. I said somewhere long ago that there wasn't enough time. There wasn't. Still say phooey on that.

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I'm sorry about that. I don't always look aside well, and my husband once crabbed at me about that at some freeway interchange, me driving. That was my first clue I had ick peripheral vision. I hope I didn't offend you, I was very interested in talking with you. Well, you know that by now, but am sorry if you had a sense of shut off back then, you're the last person I'd want to shut off.

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No, no, no. Not what I meant at all. Didn't feel even remotely shut out. I just get a better sense of a person when I can see them when I'm talking to them. Nuances of expression. Etc.

If there's ever a next time, let's do a one-on-one, face-to-face.

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I think we'll need lottery tickets...

Never mind, I would very much like to talk straight up, and who knows.

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Those moments were wonderful, and although of the three of you, I only met Diane, I feel as if I know (although very imperfectly) you all. We must not become sedentary and stop moving around, or else we won't have another chance.

Decisions and indecision. Some of you may remember my plight 6 years ago, determined to leave Frank but not quite having the wherewithal. Ethelred caught a glimpse of it "Earl's Gotta Die".

I am both looking forward to it, and am very fearful, about my next moving on move. This time to the big city of Durham, with good public transportation, access to medical stuff, and things to see and do. Have missed out by a day on two good huts that I could afford. Tonight, prior to midnight, my agent will submit a bid for me on a HUD foreclosure. Keep your fingers crossed.

Ge - I am ready for any and all of that - just don't know how to find/do it.

I think we humans should think of ourselves as pack animals, just as with other species. Anything at all which keeps us from being included within the pack, and feeling that we are, is injurious to the individual and to the pack. Witness Virginia Tech and other such sorrowful examples. This goes back to something Diane said - although I can't remember what now.

I am too much of a loner. Sometimes out of circumstances, sometimes out of personality, and I am beyond my comfort level. It is not good for me, although I doubt that I would act out in an anti-social fashion. Self destruct, maybe. I, too, have had my thoughts stray to suicide - which I see as an indication of a sense of hopelessness, not as any latent tendency to act on it.

I think that as we age, there is somewhat of a liberation in certain areas. We feel less constrained by social mores and conventions, and freer to be and do truer to oneself. And society allows and recognizes this and views it with a mixture of tolerance, bemusement, or feeling superior. If I remember correctly, the sociologists have a term for it - we get "idiosyncratic credits" as we age, and our behavior, either verbal or non-verbal, is interpreted and reacted to in a different way then if we were, say, 22.

So I do feel that - less self-censure, adopting a role or persona, adapting and tailoring myself to situational norms.

It can also be very selfish of me. If I am not in the mood to 'make nice', often as not, I don't.

Less concern for the immediate consequences of my behavior, but this is far, far stronger with strangers than with people closer to me. Yet....even then. More apologies and explanations in those situations as I truly don't want to hurt anyone.

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Kundalini, Gelesti. That is an interesting site that I want to explore. Here is a quote that I think describes what happened to me When making the decision to leave my marriage in 2003:

When this primal, intense energy awakens it seems to move with intentionality through body and psyche and is believed by eastern mystics to have the power to transform a person at the cellular level. When one feels the first intense waves of this energy/consciousness, and is tossed into the physical, psychological and spiritual chaos that follow, it is called Kundalini awakening.

For me, that was the most intense experience in my life. I knew that the world for me would never be the same no matter what decision I came to after meeting Bob. I was shaken to the core at the intensity of it and more than a little frightened. I have realized since that that experience was the first time in my life that I was going to make a life-changing choice between life and the death-like numbness in which I had been existing so many years, and that I was the only person who could or would make that decision. My world was forever changed in the most tumultuous, confusing and wonderful way.

Caribou, if you have any doubts about sounding foolish on a2k, just read that long post of mine. I was chattering on and on, going from one idea to the other. A couple of posters expressed their confusion and rightly so. It was disjointed and rambling. I was tired and felt like "talking." So now you can see how harmless it is--the people who like you or who find you interesting will put up with you, maybe saying, "Huh?" and going on with to topic. The others simply don't count.

Actually, Roberta picked up on the language but no one picked up on the idea of teaching manners in school. I really would like to hear opinions on taking a few extra minutes in the day to be nice to one anther, learning how to feel comfortable in a social setting with people from different backgrounds. Do you agree that it would help put children and adults on a level playing field?

As for meeting people in person--I can't begin to accurately describe how great it is. Putting a face to the words, seeing the personality and the words in combination is one of the most staisfying experiences I've ever had and it brought about life-long friendships. Meeting online friends in person has often been better than meeting people in live settings. It sort of gives us the chance to hand pick our friends by a meeting of minds before experiencing a physical meeting. I don't think it gets any better than that. It also gives us the opportunity to meet all sorts of personalities. What an opportunity!

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Diane wrote:

....As for meeting people in person--I can't begin to accurately describe how great it is. Putting a face to the words, seeing the personality and the words in combination is one of the most staisfying experiences I've ever had and it brought about life-long friendships. Meeting online friends in person has often been better than meeting people in live settings. It sort of gives us the chance to hand pick our friends by a meeting of minds before experiencing a physical meeting. I don't think it gets any better than that. It also gives us the opportunity to meet all sorts of personalities. What an opportunity!

Absolutely. Once I've met someone (or spoken with them on the phone), I hear their voice in their posts. Their accent, their expressions, everything. Diane has a lovely laugh. Craven has a sweet voice and almost no accent. Noddy -- as you might expect -- sounds like she'll take guff from no one (and her dog often barks in the background). Merry Andrew sounds a lot like my Uncle A__. littlek rushes her words together, maybe to get them out a little faster. dys is a slower speaker and picks his moments. I could go on. Smile

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And Jespah is her usual intelligent, funny, thoughtful self. Combine that with her gentle and equally funny Region Philbis, and you've got an unforgettable pair of great people.

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Diane wrote:

Actually, Roberta picked up on the language but no one picked up on the idea of teaching manners in school. I really would like to hear opinions on taking a few extra minutes in the day to be nice to one anther, learning how to feel comfortable in a social setting with people from different backgrounds. Do you agree that it would help put children and adults on a level playing field?

Hey, Diane. I picked up. I was responding selectively.

A few extra minutes sounds okey dokey to me. But more than that, and I'd have a problem. It disturbs me that schools are having to teach more and more stuff that people should be learning at home. There are only so many minutes in a day. I wouldn't want time taken from fundamental education given to civility.

Diane wrote:

As for meeting people in person--I can't begin to accurately describe how great it is. Putting a face to the words, seeing the personality and the words in combination is one of the most staisfying experiences I've ever had and it brought about life-long friendships. Meeting online friends in person has often been better than meeting people in live settings. It sort of gives us the chance to hand pick our friends by a meeting of minds before experiencing a physical meeting. I don't think it gets any better than that. It also gives us the opportunity to meet all sorts of personalities. What an opportunity!

I agree with every word you said here. Quick. Somebody get the smelling salts. Diane has swoooned from the shock.

You raise a stoiling pernt about a meeting of the minds preceding a meeting of the physical selves. I hadn't thought of this before. It's absolutely true. I'm grateful you pointed this out. Made me stop and think. I'm usually thinking, but I don't always stop first.

BTW, folks, Diane has a mellifluous voice. Really musical. She also has a beautiful expressive face and loverly green eyes.

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Diane is music being.

Well, that's enough of that puffery, however true it is, and it is. She does lilt, as only some of us who have never lilted can notice.

Sumac. I agree.

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On teaching manners in school, for sure. But, to me, mainly as part of discourse...

heh.

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I'm of two minds when it comes to teaching "manners" or "civility" in schools. We are such a complex, multi-everything, very mobil culture now.

We know that there are so much difference and variation in the attached meaning to behavior - even region to region a century and more ago.

On the other hand, we know that a lot is lacking, is not being taught, by example or instruction; and that this causes a deterioration of society and our comfort level and sure-footedness in it.

Somebody, somewhere, ought to be the designated player to pick up the slack, but since it recks of values, I'm not sure that our educational system is the best choice. I can foresee lawsuits over the use of tax-payer dollars, and challenges to constitutionality.

The need is clear - the venue is debatable.

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Sumac's statement,

Quote:

The need is clear - the venue is debatable

, picks up on what has been said before by Roberta and Osso, which of course is the major drawback.

If something like this could be started in kindergarten, or before, it would go a lot farther than it would even in fifth grade, when 'coolness' becomes so all important.

It wouldn't have to encompass using the right fork or knowing how to set a table properly, just being courteous is an important component of how society maintains a degree of sanity, IMO.

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Yep, boidy, I did a seni swoon. It's people like you and Jo who keep me honest. And thanks to both for describing my voice as mellifluous and music being. Gawd, I'm wonderful!!

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Manners do change, at least somewhat, even vary at the same time across groups and people moving from group to group... but basic courtesy seems smart to instill as can be done.

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sumac wrote:

I'm of two minds when it comes to teaching "manners" or "civility" in schools. We are such a complex, multi-everything, very mobil culture now.

We know that there are so much difference and variation in the attached meaning to behavior - even region to region a century and more ago.

On the other hand, we know that a lot is lacking, is not being taught, by example or instruction; and that this causes a deterioration of society and our comfort level and sure-footedness in it.

Somebody, somewhere, ought to be the designated player to pick up the slack, but since it recks of values, I'm not sure that our educational system is the best choice. I can foresee lawsuits over the use of tax-payer dollars, and challenges to constitutionality.

The need is clear - the venue is debatable.

Hello, sumac

I would dearly have loved to have responded to your earlier post - about your life circumstances - but honestly I felt I didn't know you well enough to comment. But your concerns are very familiar ones to me. I do know what you're talking about. My very best wishes to you. And to us all, for that matter! Very Happy

But about manners & civility. That's another thing!

I tend to see what's perceived as the lack of manners as something other than pure selfishness. It seems to me to be more about the loss of "communal feeling" or the loss of meaningful connection/empathy with others. Brought about by relentless advertising ("You deserve the very best!" "Pamper yourself!") & the media. There's this idea, being put about constantly, that if you're not coping/loved/succeeding that you're a loser & it's all your own fault! (And it's your turn to be evicted from the Big Brother household as a result!)
And it follows that, if you don't want to be one of these hopeless losers or rejects, you'd better do what ever it takes to be successful/popular/in charge! The message is: be ruthless, look after No 1 & show no compassion for those experiencing problems & difficulties. If you don't make it it's you're own fault!

I think it's very sad (& very lonely, too) for young people, especially, to be growing up in a culture that defines a person's worth on such a shallow basis. (I mean, Paris Hilton a hero? A role model? Oh please! Rolling Eyes

) Is there nothing for them but to compete, win, be those most successful at any cost?

Jeez, I sound like an old hippy! Laughing

But a little bit of peace, love & understanding would go a long way in teaching kids "manners & civility". It's simply considering others, the bigger picture, as well as your own gratification. That's all.

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Hi there ,msolga. I understand you perfectly. No need to be bashful as my problems were common knowledge, and known by those I conversed with on the boards. I am concerned about your drought, though.

I think another overwhelming problem is the sheer contradiction of messages that are being put out there. Must be enough to make young children confused and schizophrenic.

I don't recall reading about any study about the relative weight carried by "messages" conveyed by the various sources possible. Theoretically, because of the sheer weight of early learning and the longtime nature of the relationship, the home and parenting ought to be high up there.

But what if nothing is conveyed at home of substance and/or consistency? What if the home has "x" and important elements of the larger society have "y"? What then?

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sumac wrote:

I don't recall reading about any study about the relative weight carried by "messages" conveyed by the various sources possible. Theoretically, because of the sheer weight of early learning and the longtime nature of the relationship, the home and parenting ought to be high up there.

But what if nothing is conveyed at home of substance and/or consistency? What if the home has "x" and important elements of the larger society have "y"? What then?

<sigh>

As a teacher, I've see much evidence of many adolescents appearing to be "calling the shots" in their families. Much more so than when I was their age. I've sometimes been quite taken aback at how parents are bossed around (quite openly) by their off-spring! I suspect child rearing is rather different these days. :wink:

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sumac wrote:

If I remember correctly, the sociologists have a term for it - we get "idiosyncratic credits"

Idiosyncratic credits. Love this, sumie.

I appreciate what you're saying about being alone too much. I hope you got the HUD foreclosure. Good luck with the move.

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Speaking of manners
Speaking of manners, several Albuquerque public schools were surveyed to learn what children's biggest worry is while attending school. The most cited worry was being bullied. We know this is a serious problem based on children, mostly boys, going on killing rampages at schools after being unable to tolerate constant bullying.

Bullying is the most serious manners problem we have and it doesn't end at childhood.

BBB

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Women of a certain age.

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