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What is "God" to you?

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 08:20 pm
aidan wrote:
Rosborne - I see my god in your avatar. I've found my god in the woods of (north eastern) New Hampshire in the past, and at present I find my god in the Mendip Hills of Somerset behind my house. I can't define or describe my god and I would never try to convince or convert an unbeliever. It can't be done. But I possess real "peace that passes all understanding" from my experiences, and I know that that is real.


Hi Aidan, the god we see may be very similar. But I don't call whatever it is that I see a "God" because I feel that mere words, and even feelings, cannot do it justice.

Loren Eiseley said it best when he wrote:

Loren Eiseley wrote:
"I would say, that if 'dead' matter had reared up this curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most devoted materialist that the matter of which he speaks contains amazing, if not dreadful powers, and may not impossibly be, as Hardy has suggested, 'But one mask of many worn by the Great Face behind."
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Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Apr, 2005 09:19 pm
For a scientist, Loren Eiseley is probably one of the most spiritual authors I have ever had the privilege of reading. And eloquent, to boot.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 01:09 am
Colubar said:
What? Psilocybe grows in New Hampshire? I'll have to check out your avatar with a magnifying glass, Rosborne.

By the way, I'm just joshin' you, aidan. I understand what you're saying.

_________________
"The ultimate mystery of being is beyond all categories of thought." Joseph Campbell - Your signature explains why I can't define or describe what my god is to me Colubar. Now if I just combined Rosborne's avatar with your signature....

And thanks for the words of understanding (really, I'm being sincere-that's one thing I regret about conversations on the internet - no conversational nuances so it's so easy to be misunderstood) but I don't understand all that you said. I may be exposing my ignorance here, but I'm curious. What (or who) is "psilocybe"?
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 01:19 am
"I would say, that if 'dead' matter had reared up this curious landscape of fiddling crickets, song sparrows and wondering men, it must be plain even to the most devoted materialist that the matter of which he speaks contains amazing, if not dreadful, powers and may not impossibly be, as Hardy has suggested, 'But one mask of many worn by the Great Face behind."

Exactly Rosborne...and I think if I'm honest, I just call it/him/her "God" out of habit, and because I can't think of a more suitable word.

Thanks for posting the quote by the way - I've not read much Scientology, but Hardy is an old favorite.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 05:54 am
aidan wrote:
Thanks for posting the quote by the way - I've not read much Scientology, but Hardy is an old favorite.


Hi Aidan,

Loren Eiseley was a naturalist with a powerfully elegant writing style. Nothing to do with Scientology as far as I know.

I recommend all of his books, especially _The Immense Journey_ and _The Star Thrower_.

Here is a thread with a bit more on Eiseley: Previous A2K Thread
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:50 am
Thanks Rosborne - I think I was up too early this morning. I misread Andrew's post to say Scientologist instead of scientist. But I'll definitely check him out.
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 07:55 am
God to me is the parent who has hurt my feelings so many times that even though I still love that parent I avoid them as a defense mechanism against being hurt anymore. I've had enough.
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raheel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 08:30 am
Eorl wrote:
raheel you have entirely ignored the point.

If he is all knowing then he knows about the tsunami.

If he is all powerful then he could easily have prevented hundreds of thousands of premature deaths on a single day.


thats the thing- this life is a test. God cannot intervene and prevent all suffering! then the test would not be a test anymore!

Eorl wrote:
Are you suggesting that he WILL be all loving when I get to heaven (after I wake from this "dream" ) and therefore he can treat me as badly as he likes NOW ?


God is always loving and has sent many prophets to guide us. in a way-yes; only those who get into heaven can feel the full love of god

Don't bother, you've already given the standard cop-out answer...
Quote:
"you do not know why god does what he does "

...even though YOU claim to know exactly what he is and how he works and why he does things.[/quote]
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 08:39 am
raheel wrote:
Eorl wrote:
raheel you have entirely ignored the point.

If he is all knowing then he knows about the tsunami.

If he is all powerful then he could easily have prevented hundreds of thousands of premature deaths on a single day.


thats the thing- this life is a test. God cannot intervene and prevent all suffering! then the test would not be a test anymore!
Eorl wrote:
Are you suggesting that he WILL be all loving when I get to heaven (after I wake from this "dream" ) and therefore he can treat me as badly as he likes NOW ?


God is always loving and has sent many prophets to guide us. in a way-yes; only those who get into heaven can feel the full love of god

Don't bother, you've already given the standard cop-out answer...
Quote:
"you do not know why god does what he does "

...even though YOU claim to know exactly what he is and how he works and why he does things.
[/quote]

Who gave us a choice about whether to sign up for the class and asked us if we wanted to take a test? And what about the people who don't do well at tests? And what are we being prepared for? We don't know because we aren't told. Even in our shitty public schools we're given an idea of what we're preparing for and why we're doing it and what to expect results wise.
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catch22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 09:04 am
Faith in God is incredibly intimidating to an intelligent person. The very definition of faith is to believe in something that you cannot prove.The most profitless undertaking in the world is to get into a discussion about God & Religion. You never arrive at a conclusion, seldom convince the other person . The way of the professional cleric throughout history has been to champion bigotry and trash reason.

Most of us are born into the faiths we profess or hold sacred. We belong to a particular religious order not because we have read the great religious texts and been persuaded of their merit but because we were born into a particular household.

Quote "Religion supports nobody. It has to be supported. It produces no wheat, no corn; it ploughs no land; it fells no forests. It is a perpetual mendicant. It lives on the labors of others, and then has the arrogance to pretend that it supports the giver."
"A man is accepted into church for what he believes and turned out for what he knows."The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality."

The prize-punishment system is one of the basic pillars in all religions, so in the end it doesn't matter which is the meaning of the words "heaven" or "hell", or the individual meaning they have for each. Just keeping in mind that for all of them one is the prize, and the other the punishment, it is not even necessary to achieve a general agreement of what they are. Its their meanings what count. If they follow what their faith dictates them, they'll go to heaven, therefore, get the prize. If they don't behave and live according to their religion's laws, they'll go to hell, therefore, be punished.

As far as hell and stuff, just look at it as something made up by religion to scare people into their beliefs. And to me, no one should believe in something out of fear. Most religious texts are mythology entwined with a little bit of history. Just some nice stories people made up to answer their questions about the universe.Hell was a good story to use to convert people. Obviously it's worked because there are many people who will say they're christian or muslim or jew "just in case" there is a hell.
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coluber2001
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:42 am
aidan wrote:


And thanks for the words of understanding (really, I'm being sincere-that's one thing I regret about conversations on the internet - no conversational nuances so it's so easy to be misunderstood) but I don't understand all that you said. I may be exposing my ignorance here, but I'm curious. What (or who) is "psilocybe"?


Aidan: Thanks for your kind words. I am also a nature lover as your are, and I believe that spirituality arises from nature, as a flower blooms, rather than being a virtue imposed on it from above as the organized religions say.

Psilocybe is the genus of a group of hallucinogenic mushrooms some of which grow on cow dung—look for the picture of Psilocybe cubensis pictured earlier in this thread. Hallucinogenic mushrooms have the ability to produce near-mystical experiences, though I can't vouch for that myself.

Many so-called primitive religions use the mystical experience as the basic ritual for their religions, and the experience may be spontaneous or induced by various plants, such as mushrooms, cacti, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc. There is one plant that commonly grows in Dallas called the Illinois bundleflower, Desmanthus illinoensis, a leguminous bush from whose roots can be extracted the most powerful natural hallucinogen known, DMT or N-N Dimethyltryptamine.

Apparantly as recently as 1000 years ago indians living near the border of Texas and Mexico were using the seeds of the Texas Mountain Laural, Sophora secundiflora, which contains a well-known hallucinogen, in their rites. Unfortunately, one seed also contains enough neurotoxin to cause death so the indians substituted peyote cactus.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:42 am
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
God to me is the parent who has hurt my feelings so many times that even though I still love that parent I avoid them as a defense mechanism against being hurt anymore. I've had enough.

BVT-
That's an incredibly poignant statement. If it's not too personal, in what way have your feelings been hurt by God?

Catch 22-
I disagree that most people follow a religion out of fear. If you talk to people who are devoutly religious - no matter what religion they espouse-it's usually because it has brought them comfort, not fear. And I'm not saying that because I continue to follow the religion I was raised in - I don't- not in the same manner I was raised to practice it- not at all. But I know devout Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Buddhists and orthodox Jews- some of whom don't even believe in hell-all very intelligent people- who continue to worship their God because it brings them joy and comfort. I don't even think they give hell a second thought, or at least I've never heard them speak of it. They perform their particular religious and/or sacred rituals because it is what is familiar to them and has become something they love to do. I think people see those televangelists and mistakenly believe that's what it's all about for everyone who calls him or herself "religious". It seems to me that we should all just allow each other to take our comfort in this life where we can find it without painting all who call themselves believers in a being outside of themselves with the same broad brush and branding them muddle-brained or unintelligent. By the same token, I trust that those who are unbelievers will find their comfort , peace, and joy somewhere else - and that's okay.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:44 am
Coluber - that's why I love this forum. I learn something new every day! Thanks.
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:45 am
aidan wrote:
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
God to me is the parent who has hurt my feelings so many times that even though I still love that parent I avoid them as a defense mechanism against being hurt anymore. I've had enough.

BVT-
That's an incredibly poignant statement. If it's not too personal, in what way have your feelings been hurt by God?

Catch 22-
I disagree that most people follow a religion out of fear. If you talk to people who are devoutly religious - no matter what religion they espouse-it's usually because it has brought them comfort, not fear. And I'm not saying that because I continue to follow the religion I was raised in - I don't- not in the same manner I was raised to practice it- not at all. But I know devout Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Buddhists and orthodox Jews- some of whom don't even believe in hell-all very intelligent people- who continue to worship their God because it brings them joy and comfort. I don't even think they give hell a second thought, or at least I've never heard them speak of it. They perform their particular religious and/or sacred rituals because it is what is familiar to them and has become something they love to do. I think people see those televangelists and mistakenly believe that's what it's all about for everyone who calls him or herself "religious". It seems to me that we should all just allow each other to take our comfort in this life where we can find it without painting all who call themselves believers in a being outside of themselves with the same broad brush and branding them muddle-brained or unintelligent. By the same token, I trust that those who are unbelievers will find their comfort , peace, and joy somewhere else - and that's okay.


Sorry, with a name like BVT I'm not allowed to get but so maudlin. In addition I'm sure I've done plenty to hurt God's feelings as well so tit for tat I guess.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 10:47 am
Gotcha
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sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Apr, 2005 11:52 am
This question has been asked dozens of times on this forum and, here, we have the same answers.

The better question could be "How do we humans access 'God' since he/she/it is everywhere present - as a matter of fact, there is absolutely nowhere where this presence is not."

When we access God, then we know "what is God?"

The only statement I can think to say to "athiests" is they sure can never blame "God" for anything.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2005 02:35 am
aidan wrote:
If you talk to people who are devoutly religious - no matter what religion they espouse-it's usually because it has brought them comfort, not fear.


The problem with that point aidan, is that a reason a person gives may bear little relation to the reason they actually have.

Also, what do they mean by "bringing comfort"? A mother who has just lost a child might take "comfort" in religion, meaning escape from the fear of death being oblivion.
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2005 03:19 am
Eorl - I appreciate your points. It's always interesting to view it from a different stance. And I think you're right, when you're talking with strangers, just surveying for answers about why they follow a certain religion, a lot of people just give the answer they think is acceptable or appropriate because it's easier.
I'm talking about people I know and have observed personally over a long period of time. I hope they feel honest to be who they are around me and don't feel the need to embellish or change their motives to suit what they think I would approve of or believe. It is from these observations, and taking part in their religious ceremonies, (such as passover seders, christenings, baptisms, etc.) in their homes , temples or churches with them from which I am drawing my anecdotal evidence.

As for your other point, all I can say is, if a belief in something more after death can help a parent cope with the death of a child, I would never deny them that hope, despite what my own beliefs might be. I'm not really interested in judging why people believe what they believe, even if it seems illogical to me, unless or until it hurts others. And though I know organized religion historically has a pretty awful track record, and I'm not discounting that - I think that is another thread. This thread is about the differing beliefs of individuals, what they might be, and why or how people may come to have them, or at least that's my take on it.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2005 03:55 am
That all seems fair enough aidan, although I should clarify that I was not proposing that people might deceive YOU about why they believe, but rather that they are not themselves aware.

People probably don't think they need reasons to believe in the gods they have always believed in.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Apr, 2005 04:03 am
sunlover wrote:
This question has been asked dozens of times on this forum and, here, we have the same answers.

The better question could be "How do we humans access 'God' since he/she/it is everywhere present - as a matter of fact, there is absolutely nowhere where this presence is not."

When we access God, then we know "what is God?"

The only statement I can think to say to "athiests" is they sure can never blame "God" for anything.


sunlover, I see nothing that even hints at the existence of any gods, present or past. Perhaps you should say "I believe" rather than state your weird ideas as solid facts?

But on your last point you are correct, I've never blamed any gods for anything. It wouldn't even occur to me to try. I (as an atheist) must take full responsibilty for myself. If I do bad things, I do them because I want to, not because I was "made" to.
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