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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:26 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Drewdad writes
Quote:
I'm not talking about Terri. I'm talking about your vow to work to see that no one is ever dehydrated to death again.

If you're saying now that you want to work on clarifying the law, then go for it. But that's different from what you said earlier in the thread.


If you had been reading my posts, (Smile), you would know that I draw a distinction between the 'right to die' and euthenasia or intentionally killing the patient. Now the 'right to die' issue is being discussed on Phoenix's other thread and is not pertinent to this discussion; however, I still maintain it extremely rare and unusual that any sane person would choose death by dehydration. I do know people, some in my own family recently, who have refused nutrition and hydration when they were in the final stages of dying from other causes. They did not die of dehydration.

So yes, I will work to be sure nobody is ever dehydrated to death again, meaning it will be seen as the inhumane and unconscionably cruel treatment that it is and will be illegal and it will not be imposed on people helpless to stop it.


It is not at all uncommon among the elderly. My husband's 94 year old grandmother decided she had lived long enough. She refused food and water. We were told by the nursing home staff that they see it all the time. Here is an article I found at LifeNews.com, a self proclaimed pro-life web site:

Study: Patients Who Want Death Hastened Refuse Food, Water

by Steven Ertelt
LifeNews.com Editor
July 23, 2003

Boston, MA (LifeNews.com) -- A study published in Thursday's issue of the New England Journal of Medicine says some terminally ill hospice patients who wish to hasten their deaths forgo food and water.

Researchers from Portland Veterans Affairs Medical Center surveyed 429 nurses in Oregon, who said patients pick self-starvation twice as often as physician-assisted suicide.

Dr. Linda Ganzini, who directed the study, was initially surprised by the numbers because previous studies showed a relatively low number of cases of refusal.

Ganzini said she was altered to the problem when interviewing 35 physicians about assisted suicide. Seven of them knew someone who had refused food and water during their hospice care.

Hospice workers in other states said they saw similar choices being made by some of their patients, though they stressed the overall number of cases is low.

Ganzini said that although the number of people refusing food and water was surprisingly high, it accounted for only a tiny fraction of the more than 10,000 people who die under hospice care each year in Oregon.

While assisted suicide is legal only in Oregon, refusing food and water is legal in all states. Patients do not need to inform either their family or doctor. In some cases, patients simply decide to quit eating on their own.

Pro-life advocates say depression frequently leads to such choices and is often left untreated.

Burke Balch, Director of Medical Ethics at the National Right to Life Committee, told LifeNews.com, "Whether death is deliberately brought about by starving and dehydrating a patient or through a lethal injection, we must ask about the effect of untreated depression on the patient's decision."

"Tragically, too many in the medical profession now fail to recognize that someone expressing a desire to die deserves referral for appropriate counseling and medication from knowledgeable experts, not abandonment to death in the guise of respect for patient autonomy," Balch explained.

One-third of the nurses said they knew of at least one patient who deliberately hastened death by stopping food and fluids during the previous four years. At least 16 patients who stopped eating and drinking changed their mind and resumed receiving nutrition.

The nurses reported 85 percent died a "good" death within 15 days after stopping food and fluids.

"Nurses reported that patients chose to stop eating and drinking because they were ready to die, saw continued existence as pointless, and considered their quality of life poor," the study said.

On the basis of the hospice nurses' reports, the patients who stopped eating and drinking were older than 55 patients who died by assisted suicide (74 vs. 64 years of age) and less likely to want to control the circumstances of their death.

Confirming Balch's concerns, the study revealed patients were less likely to be evaluated by a mental health professional.

Nancy Valko, a leading pro-life nurse who monitors end-of-life issues, said she was surprised to see no mention of pain medication in the study.

Such medication "is often a routine part of self-starvation and can give the impression of a 'peaceful' death to others," Valko explained. "Such medication is also routine in cases of withdrawal of food and water from the so-called 'vegetative' and others without a terminal illness."

Valko also said it is important to distinguish between "the truly dying and those who are terminally ill but not close to death."

"When death is close and organs begin to shut down, there is indeed a loss of appetite and we give people what little they need or desire in terms of nutrition and hydration. We don't force people to eat or drink because it can indeed cause suffering if people become overloaded," said Valko.

"However, it has become increasingly common in some hospices to tell or even encourage people to refuse food and water long before the person is actively dying," Valko explained. "Starvation and dehydration is very different (and uncomfortable) from the true dying process."

http://www.lifenews.com/bio17.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:37 pm
The last of your post makes my point perfectly J_B.

Quote:
"When death is close and organs begin to shut down, there is indeed a loss of appetite and we give people what little they need or desire in terms of nutrition and hydration. We don't force people to eat or drink because it can indeed cause suffering if people become overloaded," said Valko.

"However, it has become increasingly common in some hospices to tell or even encourage people to refuse food and water long before the person is actively dying," Valko explained. "Starvation and dehydration is very different (and uncomfortable) from the true dying process."


And Terri Schiavo was not dying of anything until it was forced on her.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:39 pm
What the hell are you talking about, Fox? Terri Schiavo died 15 years ago.

The fact that you cannot admit this critical aspect of the case belies the hollowness of yer argument.

Cheers tho

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:48 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
What the hell are you talking about, Fox? Terri Schiavo died 15 years ago.

The fact that you cannot admit this critical aspect of the case belies the hollowness of yer argument.

Cheers tho

Cycloptichorn

Why should she admit something concerning which there is not a concensus of opinion either among doctors or the people close to TS? You act as though it were a simple, agreed upon fact, when it is not. What tests were done on TS? What tests are standard in this kind of investigation? Did she receive a complete series of tests considered standard? Do you know? Your repeated insistence that everyone who knows anything agrees that she was as good as dead does not make it so.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:55 pm
Fox, I intentially posted the entire article and chose one from a prolife site because I'm trying to present the entire argument. I realise there are items within the article that discount individual choice. I would expect that from a prolife site, but at the same time the article makes the point that people DO in fact choose to go without food and water.

Did Terri Schiavo choose to go without food and water? Of course not. She chose to not be kept alive by artificial means, as was determined by the courts. You might not believe that was her choice, but your belief and my belief are irrelevant. The courts determined her intent was not to be kept alive by artificial means. The only legal recourse we have, at this time, is to not supply artificial support. If your intent is to allow for a quicker end for someone who does not want to be maintained on artificial support, then tell me where to sign up. If your intent is to drag out death by an additional two to three weeks by supplying IV fluids to maintain hydration while someone who has chosen to not be artificially supported lingers away even longer then I'm signing the other list.

You've said that no one is neutral. Well, I am. I have no personal opinion in this matter beyond following the due process of the law. That is exactly what happened and I would have equally supported the alternative outcome. This was a private matter between the Schiavos and the Schindlers and was handled within the courts as appropriate.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 01:59 pm
J_B wrote:
Fox, I intentially posted the entire article and chose one from a prolife site because I'm trying to present the entire argument. I realise there are items within the article that discount individual choice. I would expect that from a prolife site, but at the same time the article makes the point that people DO in fact choose to go without food and water.

Did Terri Schiavo choose to go without food and water? Of course not. She chose to not be kept alive by artificial means, as was determined by the courts. You might not believe that was her choice, but your belief and my belief are irrelevant. The courts determined her intent was not to be kept alive by artificial means. The only legal recourse we have, at this time, is to not supply artificial support. If your intent is to allow for a quicker end for someone who does not want to be maintained on artificial support, then tell me where to sign up. If your intent is to drag out death by an additional two to three weeks by supplying IV fluids to maintain hydration while someone who has chosen to not be artificially supported lingers away even longer then I'm signing the other list.

You've said that no one is neutral. Well, I am. I have no personal opinion in this matter beyond following the due process of the law. That is exactly what happened and I would have equally supported the alternative outcome. This was a private matter between the Schiavos and the Schindlers and was handled within the courts as appropriate.

This silly mantra of "The courts said it, so we must respect it," is baloney. Some of the most unethical and abhorrent acts in history have been legal.

Many of the libs were singing a different tune when the Supreme Court settled the 2000 presidential election.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:08 pm
Brandon,

From my earlier source, found here:

http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html

Quote:
What's happened to Terri since her collapse?

The Second District's first opinion in this case explained:

Since 1990, Theresa has lived in nursing homes with constant care. She is fed and hydrated by tubes. The staff changes her diapers regularly. She has had numerous health problems, but none have been life threatening.

Over the span of this last decade, Theresa's brain has deteriorated because of the lack of oxygen it suffered at the time of the heart attack. By mid 1996, the CAT scans of her brain showed a severely abnormal structure. At this point, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. Medicine cannot cure this condition. Unless an act of God, a true miracle, were to recreate her brain, Theresa will always remain in an unconscious, reflexive state, totally dependent upon others to feed her and care for her most private needs.

In a later opinion in the same case, the Second District further explained:


Although the physicians are not in complete agreement concerning the extent of Mrs. Schiavo's brain damage, they all agree that the brain scans show extensive permanent damage to her brain. The only debate between the doctors is whether she has a small amount of isolated living tissue in her cerebral cortex or whether she has no living tissue in her cerebral cortex.


The debate amongst medical personnel is whether or not she has a tiny, and I do mean tiny, amount of tissue still alive. Noone has ever suggested that this tissue is sufficient to support consciousness; the doctors hired by the Schindlers insist that therapy could make her better, but the court found their claims to be without merit.

As for the people close to TS, they don't know any more about medicine than you or I. Their opinion is immaterial, and frankly, suspect; emotions are undoubtedly clouding judgement, as would be expected.

I can assure you with 100% confidence that during the first four years of TS' PVS, she recieved every test and rehab that they could think of. None helped. In 96 and 02 brain scans were done to see if the situation was getting better; it wasn't. This has all been documented endlessly in this thread if you would actually bother to read the links that people have posted.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:09 pm
J B Writes
Quote:
She chose to not be kept alive by artificial means, as was determined by the courts. You might not believe that was her choice, but your belief and my belief are irrelevant. The courts determined her intent was not to be kept alive by artificial means.


I would have had no problem at all if the judge had ruled that a respirator or heart machine be disconnected when the patient is judged to have 'no hope of recovery'. Then if the patient cannot breathe or his/her heart stops, so be it. Only very gravely ill or damaged people are on such life support. If, after the machines are disconnected, the heart continues to beat and the patient begins to breathe on his/her own, however, then s/he is cared for per usual as a living person.

The whole issue for me is that nutrition and hydration are not artificial life support. All living things require it from the very young who cannot obtain it for themselves to the very old and/or injured or incapacitated who cannot provide it for themselves. It would be unthinkable to withhold it from an infant or injured person. And to me, it is unthinkable to withhold it from the most helpless of the helpless who cannot communicate their needs or wants at all.

I think the judge gravely erred on that point, but now that a very widely publicized precedent is set, it will probably take some very carefully thought out and structured laws to protect those citizens who cannot protect themselves.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:12 pm
That makes no sense at all, Fox.

Nutrition/Hydration/Inhalation are all basically the same thing; the body taking the sustenance it needs from the world around it to continue functioning.

There is no difference between a feeding tube, a hydration tube, and a ventilator. All are used in instances where the patient's body will not support itself without outside assistance. To say it is okay to remove one, but the other isn't okay, is ridiculous.

TS was judged to have 'no hope of recovery' many years ago, and that judgement has not changed in light of recent events....

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:12 pm
Quote:
This silly mantra of "The courts said it, so we must respect it," is baloney. Some of the most unethical and abhorrent acts in history have been legal.


The Schindler's went through EVERY possible legal recourse and their claim was rejected at each step. If you don't respect the courts then who are we to turn to for determination? Shall we have a public referendum every time sometime doesn't like the outcome of an appeal? Shall we wake the President up at 1:00 am every morning to sign the Mary, Peter, or Paul legislation?

I have no problem that they took their case to court and followed it through the appeals process. I do have a problem when they pulled the Congress and the President of the United States into the debate. We are a country of laws. If you don't agree with the law you should work to change it, as Fox has stated, but you cannot ignore it becuase you don't like it.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:12 pm
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Brandon,

From my earlier source, found here:

Thanks.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:13 pm
J_B wrote:
Quote:
This silly mantra of "The courts said it, so we must respect it," is baloney. Some of the most unethical and abhorrent acts in history have been legal.


The Schindler's went through EVERY possible legal recourse and their claim was rejected at each step. If you don't respect the courts then who are we to turn to for determination? Shall we have a public referendum every time sometime doesn't like the outcome of an appeal? Shall we wake the President up at 1:00 am every morning to sign the Mary, Peter, or Paul legislation?

I have no problem that they took their case to court and followed it through the appeals process. I do have a problem when they pulled the Congress and the President of the United States into the debate. We are a country of laws. If you don't agree with the law you should work to change it, as Fox has stated, but you cannot ignore it becuase you don't like it.

You'd have been a lot of fun during the Holocaust.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:15 pm
Wow, that was.... low

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:15 pm
J_B wrote:
If you don't agree with the law you should work to change it, as Fox has stated, but you cannot ignore it becuase you don't like it.


Exactly that this is obviously ignored by some make me shiver.

And anxious.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:16 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:

You'd have been a lot of fun during the Holocaust.


So YOU compare the actual situation in the USA to Hitler's Germany?
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:18 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:

You'd have been a lot of fun during the Holocaust.


So YOU compare the actual situation in the USA to Hitler's Germany?

Can your thinking processes actually be this glacial? I am only saying that the idea that the law must be regarded as the final authority no matter what the moral implication is wrong. I will say this once again slowly: One can compare an aspect of two things without implying that they are globally identical.
0 Replies
 
Dookiestix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:19 pm
Brandon wrote:
Many of the libs were singing a different tune when the Supreme Court settled the 2000 presidential election.


Rolling Eyes

Yes, because the Supreme court voted right along party lines in one of the most hotly contested elections in modern American history.

Please show us where the courts were as divided in the case of Terri Shiavo. As you will find out, it was Greer, a Christian Republican, who upholded the rulings, and it was a majority of Republican nominated judges who overwhelmingly agreed with Michael Shiavo. That would include MOST of the doctors, as the few others who disagreed ended up being charlatans. That would include Dr. Frist, who can somehow make an educated diagnosis via a video clip.

How is it that you would use such a poorly thought out analogy?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:21 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Gelisgesti wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So you won't answer the question Geli? You can't answer it so you resort back to insult instead of civil discourse?

Air is different from hydration or nutrition so far as being a life sustaining necessity or it isn't. If you can withhold nutrition and hydration, why not air which would be so much more humane?

Insult .... insult!!!! I try to help and you call it INSULT!!!
Your questions are insults. Why don't you read what you write if you won't read others.

You truly beleive that it would less painful ..... to die of suffocation ... struggling and gasping for breath than to slip into a coma from lack of nutrition.

Why do I try????


I missed something ... what would be struggling and gasping for breath? The shell?


You're a big boy now, go to the dictionary and look up three words; pons, medulla oblongata, and autonomic. Then come back and tell us what you learned Cool


Did you hurt yourself dodging the question? Cool


No but you hurt yourself trying to understand the answer. Poor Tico, did you get a mental boo boo?

5 entries found for autonomic.
au·to·nom·ic Audio pronunciation of "autonomic" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ôt-nmk)
adj.

1. Physiology.
1. Of, relating to, or controlled by the autonomic nervous system.
2. Occurring involuntarily; automatic: an autonomic reflex.
2. Resulting from internal stimuli; spontaneous.

You see autonomic body functions are controlled by separate areas of the brain .... breathing, swallowing, blinking... reflex movements, that is why you leg jumps when the doctor hit your knee ..... sooooo yes it was the shell..... but the shell is not really Terri now is it.
You should have paid attention in P&A

Glad to help Cool
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:23 pm
Dookiestix wrote:
Brandon wrote:
Many of the libs were singing a different tune when the Supreme Court settled the 2000 presidential election.


Rolling Eyes

Yes, because the Supreme court voted right along party lines in one of the most hotly contested elections in modern American history.

Please show us where the courts were as divided in the case of Terri Shiavo. As you will find out, it was Greer, a Christian Republican, who upholded the rulings, and it was a majority of Republican nominated judges who overwhelmingly agreed with Michael Shiavo. That would include MOST of the doctors, as the few others who disagreed ended up being charlatans. That would include Dr. Frist, who can somehow make an educated diagnosis via a video clip.

How is it that you would use such a poorly thought out analogy?

My only point was that this idea that court decisions are necessarily the correct ones is something that some people adopt only when convenient. The fact that I compare one aspect of two things does not mean that I declare them to be identical in all respects. This is elementary.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 5 Apr, 2005 02:25 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
Can your thinking processes actually be this glacial?


Perhaps you've never heard that those sitting in a glasshouse shouldn't throw stones.
0 Replies
 
 

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