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Has the Schiavo case Become a Political Football?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:12 pm
Yes, I sent her one too! LOL
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:19 pm
I sent her a link to one article, as well as a link to a page of Google hits on Sun Hudson.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:23 pm
You guys are great. The reason that I asked for a PM, was that I didn't think that I would get a link so fast. Then I would have to wade through pages and pages to find it. I really appreciate you all!
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:43 pm
Im sorry I didnt send you any link, Phoenix. I feel a bit like, you know - the one guy who didnt send any link now. Like - simultaneously left out and - well, hopeless, obviously. Slacker. <sighs>





[size=7](joking)[/size]
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:43 pm
I bet you can get a chart out of this though!!!


:-D
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 07:49 pm
[size=8]Top of the Pop Charts v Top of the Nimh Charts


What would you watch? [/size]
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 08:14 pm
Some afterthoughts.
*****************

Even as Doctors Say Enough, Families Fight to Prolong Life
By PAM BELLUCK

Published: March 27, 2005


BOSTON, March 26 - For years, when families and hospitals fought over how to treat critically ill patients, families often pressed to let their loved ones die, while hospitals tried to keep them alive.

But in the last decade or so, things have changed.

Now, doctors and ethicists say that when hospitals and families clash, conflicts often pit families who want to continue life support and aggressive medical care against doctors who believe it is time to stop.


"The most common case that comes before the ethics committees," said Dr. John J. Paris, a bioethicist at Boston College, "are families now insisting on treatment that the doctors believe is unwarranted."

Extraordinary medical advances have stoked the hopes of families. Also, more patients and families feel empowered to make medical decisions, and some are skeptical of doctors' interpretations or intentions.

When asked in polls about Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged Florida woman, 60 percent to 70 percent of respondents said they would remove Ms. Schiavo's feeding tube and, in similar circumstances, would choose not to keep themselves or a spouse alive.

Many right-to-die requests would not cause conflict with a hospital these days because they are more likely to be in sync with doctors' assessments. When there is a conflict, it typically involves families who feel their loved one would not want to endure surgery or treatment that might not succeed.

But even families who say they believe in removing life support may find that position untenable when their own relatives are involved.

"About 15 years ago, at least 80 percent of the cases were right-to-die kinds of cases," said Dr. Lachlan Forrow, the director of ethics programs at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, who handles 50 to 100 end-of-life conflicts a year. "Today, it's more like at least 80 percent of the cases are the other direction: family members who are pushing for continued or more aggressive life support and doctors and nurses who think that that's wrong."

Dr. Lisa Anderson-Shaw, co-chairwoman of the ethics committee at University of Illinois at Chicago hospital, said that in 1998 she consulted on 2 such cases, while last year, she fielded 11.

Chuck Ceronsky, a co-chairman of the ethics committee of Fairview University Medical Center in Minneapolis, said, "The right-to-die families find a more receptive audience in the hospital, as opposed to years ago when a doctor might say, My job is not to end life."

Mr. Ceronsky added, "We have a disproportionate number of cases where people come in with something they think ought to be tried, or that they've read on the Internet ought to be tried."

Ethics committees resolve most cases, often through repeated family discussions over weeks or months.

But at least three states, Texas, Virginia and California, have laws that let doctors refuse treatment against the wishes of a family, or even a patient's advanced directive in certain circumstances. In other states, like Wisconsin, doctors are seeking such laws.

"When they're asking for things that become absolutely nonsensical, then you don't have to do it anymore," said Dr. Kay Heggestad, who is the chairwoman of the ethics committee of the Wisconsin Medical Society and is helping draft a "futile care" bill in her state. "If someone marches into my office with normal kidney function and demands dialysis, I am not required to offer that."

Recently, several life-support requests have landed in court.

In October, when doctors at a hospital in Salt Lake City declared 6-year-old Jesse Koochin brain dead and planned to remove life support, Jesse's parents, Steve and Gayle Koochin, went to court. A judge ruled against the hospital and granted the Koochins the right to take Jesse home, where they kept him on a ventilator and said they were convinced that he could get better with alternative medical treatments. A month later, Jesse died.

In Boston, doctors considered it so inhumane to keep alive Barbara Howe, a 79-year-old woman with Lou Gehrig's disease, that the chairman of the ethics committee wrote in June 2003, "this is Massachusetts General Hospital, not Auschwitz."
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 09:36 pm
Signs of Awareness Seen in Brain-Injured Patients

By BENEDICT CAREY

Published: February 8, 2005

Thousands of brain-damaged people who are treated as if they are almost completely unaware may in fact hear and register what is going on around them but be unable to respond, a new brain-imaging study suggests.

The findings, if repeated in follow-up experiments, could have sweeping implications for how to care best for these patients. Some experts said the study, which appeared yesterday in the journal Neurology, could also have consequences for legal cases in which parties dispute the mental state of an unresponsive patient.

The research showed that the brain-imaging technology, magnetic resonance imaging, can be a powerful tool to help doctors and family members determine whether a person has lost all awareness or is still somewhat mentally engaged, experts said.

"This study gave me goose bumps, because it shows this possibility of this profound isolation, that these people are there, that they've been there all along, even though we've been treating them as if they're not," said Dr. Joseph Fins, chief of the medical ethics division of New York Presbyterian Hospital-Weill Cornell Medical Center. Dr. Fins was not involved in the study but collaborates with its authors on other projects.

Other experts warned that the new research was more suggestive than conclusive, and that it did not mean that unresponsive people with brain damage were more likely to recover or that treatment was yet possible.

But they said the study did open a window on a world that has been neglected by medical inquiry. "This is an extremely important work, for that reason alone," said Dr. James Bernat, a professor of neurology at Dartmouth.

Dr. Bernat said findings from studies like these would be relevant to cases like that of Terri Schiavo, a Florida woman with brain damage who has been kept alive for years against her husband's wishes. In that case, which drew the attention of Gov. Jeb Bush and the Legislature, relatives of Ms. Schiavo disagreed about her condition, and a brain-imaging test - once it has been standardized - could help determine whether brain damage has extinguished awareness.

The patients in question have significant brain damage. Three million to six million Americans live with the consequences of serious brain injuries, neurologists said. An estimated 100,000 to 300,000 of them are in what is called a minimally conscious state: they are bedridden, cannot communicate and are unable to feed or care for themselves, but they typically breathe on their own.

They may occasionally react to instructions to blink their eyes or even reach for a glass, although such responses are unpredictable. By observing behavior in a bedside examination, neurologists can determine whether a person is minimally conscious or in a "persistent vegetative state" - without awareness, and almost certain not to recover.

In the study, a team of neuroscientists in New York, New Jersey and Washington, D.C., used imaging technology to compare brain activity in two young men determined to be minimally conscious with that of seven healthy men and women. In a measure of overall brain activity, the two groups were vastly different: the two minimally conscious men showed less than half the activity of the others.

But the researchers also recorded an audiotape for each of the nine subjects in which a relative or loved one reminisced, telling familiar stories and recalling shared experiences. In each of the brain-damaged patients, the sound of the voice prompted a pattern of brain activity similar to that of the healthy participants.

"We assumed we would get some minimal response in these patients, but nothing like this," said Dr. Nicholas Schiff, an assistant professor of neurology and neuroscience at Weill Cornell Medical College in Manhattan and the study's lead author. The two men showed near-normal patterns in the language-processing areas of their brains, Dr. Schiff said, suggesting that some neural networks "could be perfectly preserved under some conditions."

A better understanding of brain patterns in minimally conscious patients should also help cut down on misdiagnosis by doctors, Dr. Fins said. He said one study had found that as many as 30 percent of patients identified as being unaware, in a persistently vegetative state, were not. They were minimally conscious.

Moreover, mental states can change over time, and some patients have almost completely recovered function after being thought vegetative. Brain imaging would be one way to track these changes, and even link them to efforts at treatment. Doctors have no cure for either a minimally conscious or persistently vegetative state.

"The most consequential thing about this is that we have opened a door, we have found an objective voice for these patients, which tells us they have some cognitive ability in a way they cannot tell us themselves," Dr. Hirsch said. The patients are, she added, "more human than we imagined in the past, and it is unconscionable not to aggressively pursue research efforts to evaluate them and develop therapeutic techniques."

Entire article available at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/08/science/08coma.html?ex=1111986000&en=51fd08648b43a934&ei=5070&oref=login&oref=login
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Mar, 2005 09:41 pm
Brandon's statements - I wonder if Brandon can see what is obvious to everyone else.
Quote:
It is undeniable that any large group contains a few people who are unworthy. If it actually is a tiny minority, any attempt to imply that it betrays a fundamental unworthiness of the group is invalid. It would be an invalid statistical inference in any case. I can only hope that I would not make a point I knew to be logically wrong to advance my agenda.

Quote:
You know as well as I do that every large group contains some bad elements, and unless that is also the nature of the preponderance of the members, it means nothing. Therefore, this objection of your is a poorly thought out red herring.


Now the PREVIOUS kicker from Brandon :
Quote:
If one post really says it all, this is it. You have just confirmed my belief that I am on the right side.


So.. speaking of RED HERRINGS and being 'logically wrong'. Care to explain your statements here Brandon?
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 08:19 am
Dr. Leon Prockop, a professor of neurology at the University of South Florida, has reviewed Terri Schaivo's CAT scans. I have quoted only parts of what he has written. I think that in order to get an understanding of what Dr. Prockop is saying, you really need to read the entire article.

It is so refreshing to see an evaluation that is purely scientific, stripped from the histrionics and emotional drama that has surrounded this case. Maybe Terri's legacy will be the increased knowledge of the problems surrounding the PVS.



Quote:
The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of those who observe her. As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally associate vocal tones with specific moods. They detect meaningful words in nonsense utterances.


Quote:
To understand the emotional reaction to the tapes of Terri Schiavo, one need only spend a few minutes with Kismet.

People who spend time with the robot at a Massachusetts Institute of Technology lab walk away feeling like they've made a new friend. Kismet is nothing but a mechanical head made out of metal and plastic, but it has been cleverly programmed by scientists to mimic human social interactions.

Sit down across from Kismet and it gives you a pleasant smile. Step too close and it jumps back with a startled expression on its face. Introduce yourself and it waits patiently for you to finish talking, then replies with a few syllables of speech that sounds like a higher-pitched version of the language spoken by the teachers in 'Charlie Brown' cartoons.

Kismet is no more conscious than a dishwasher or a microwave oven. But its vaguely human behavior has a powerful effect on brains that are predisposed to attach meaning to gesture, facial expression and vocal tone.

"This ... system that we have is so automatic and so powerful, sometimes it ends up being triggered by things that aren't people and don't have minds at all," said Martha J. Farah, a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania. "It's very hard to suppress the impression that there's somebody there."

People in persistent vegetative states are no more aware than Kismet, but they retain a handful of primitive reflexes that are naturally misinterpreted as conscious behavior.

"The mere noise of walking will make the eyes flicker," said Lawrence J. Schneiderman, a professor at the University of California, San Diego medical school who specializes in the bioethics of medical futility and end-of-life care. "And there may be a grimace, so the relatives will say, 'Oh, she's happy to see me.'"



Link
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 09:02 am
I get nothing from that link?????
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 09:06 am
dlowan wrote:
I get nothing from that link?????


Leads here to "North Korea Reports Outbreak of Bird Flu" at nynewsday.com :wink:
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 09:06 am
seems to be a link to the current science/health headline at NYNewsday - I got an article on North Korean Avian Flu.

the politicians are backing away, and this debate drops off the front page

sad, because I think it's (generally) a debate that needs to be continued.
0 Replies
 
Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 09:24 am
Bird flu? Yeah, I just got that too. Sorry about that. But I just found the story:

Quote:
Docs Say Schiavo Videotapes Can Mislead

By ALLEN G. BREED and MATT CRENSON
Associated Press Writers

March 27, 2005, 8:41 AM EST

PINELLAS PARK, Fla. -- They say film doesn't lie, but does that mean it tells the truth? The public sees fleeting videotaped images of Terri Schiavo, appearing to many to turn toward her mother's voice and smile. They hear what sound like moans and laughter. They watch her head move up and down, seemingly following the progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon. And often they ask: How could anyone conclude but that she is aware of her surroundings?

The answer lies not so much within Schiavo's brain as in the minds of those who observe her. As social beings, humans are hard-wired to examine another's face for clues to what the person behind it is thinking. They naturally associate vocal tones with specific moods. They detect meaningful words in nonsense utterances.

"I can understand that, because I have examined scores if not hundreds of people with this condition," says Dr. Leon Prockop, a professor of neurology at the University of South Florida, who has reviewed the brain-damaged woman's CAT scans.

At first, he says, his "natural emotional desire to be optimistic and hopeful" made him interpret movements and facial expressions as purposeful. But after long experience, Prockop says, "I came to realize that my emotional reaction was understandable as a human being, but was not an intellectual assessment."

The public has seen only a tiny portion of the more than four hours of videotape shot during the past seven years of litigation over whether to keep the 41-year-old woman on a feeding tube. Even doctors who have agreed that she is in a persistent vegetative state have admitted to being swayed, if only briefly, by the now familiar images that have been played and replayed on national television.

During testimony in a 2002 hearing, court-appointed neurologist Peter Bambakidis acknowledged that seeing the videotapes of Schiavo's mother kissing and speaking with her gave him pause at first.

"Yes, that was a source of the concern on my part: How does one interpret a situation like that," he said. He even acknowledged that she did track a Mickey Mouse balloon with her eyes in one clip.

"I was concerned as to whether or not there may have been some minimal consciousness there," he testified.

But Bambakidis noted that such visual tracking "commonly occurs spontaneously in people in a persistent vegetative state." After reviewing her brain scans and visiting with her, he came to the conclusion that she had no hope of recovery.

Dr. James Barnhill, a neurologist hired by Michael Schiavo, the husband who has fought through the courts to honor what he says would have been his wife's wishes, reviewed the videotapes and came to a similar conclusion.

Barnhill has said Terri Schiavo engaged in "pathological laughter, pathological crying ... consistent with the vocalizations that are seen in people with persistent vegetative states. I see nothing on that tape that indicates an awareness there or consciousness."

William Hammesfahr, a neurologist hired by Terri Schiavo's parents, looks at the same tape and sees a woman who is clearly reacting to her mother, turning toward her voice, smiling and appearing to sing when she hears familiar piano music.

"She is absolutely responding to her mother," he testified. "There's no doubt."

To understand the emotional reaction to the tapes of Terri Schiavo, one need only spend a few minutes with Kismet.

People who spend time with the robot at a Massachusetts Institute of Technology lab walk away feeling like they've made a new friend. Kismet is nothing but a mechanical head made out of metal and plastic, but it has been cleverly programmed by scientists to mimic human social interactions.

Sit down across from Kismet and it gives you a pleasant smile. Step too close and it jumps back with a startled expression on its face. Introduce yourself and it waits patiently for you to finish talking, then replies with a few syllables of speech that sounds like a higher-pitched version of the language spoken by the teachers in 'Charlie Brown' cartoons.

Kismet is no more conscious than a dishwasher or a microwave oven. But its vaguely human behavior has a powerful effect on brains that are predisposed to attach meaning to gesture, facial expression and vocal tone.

"This ... system that we have is so automatic and so powerful, sometimes it ends up being triggered by things that aren't people and don't have minds at all," said Martha J. Farah, a psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania. "It's very hard to suppress the impression that there's somebody there."

People in persistent vegetative states are no more aware than Kismet, but they retain a handful of primitive reflexes that are naturally misinterpreted as conscious behavior.

"The mere noise of walking will make the eyes flicker," said Lawrence J. Schneiderman, a professor at the University of California, San Diego medical school who specializes in the bioethics of medical futility and end-of-life care. "And there may be a grimace, so the relatives will say, 'Oh, she's happy to see me.'"

But all of those apparent signs of awareness are the product of a brain so damaged that by medical definition it has no capability of thought, no sensory awareness, no sense of its own existence in the world.

In Schiavo's condition, only the most primitive part of the brain survives. That region, known as the brain stem, merely sustains the vital functions of breathing, heart rate, sleep-wake cycles and primitive reflexes such as coughing and blinking.

"I think the term should be permanent unconsciousness," Schneiderman said.

Prockop prefers the phrase "coma vigil."

"If you put your finger in their hand, they reflexively grasp it," he says. "The analogy can be made to infancy."

But while a newborn's frontal lobes are present but undeveloped, Schiavo's frontal lobes are damaged beyond repair, Prockop says.

Prockop says the video clips he's seen are consistent with a diagnosis of coma vigil. But he cautions that he would not use them to make a diagnosis.

"You can't take these clips out of the context of examining the individual and seeing a long monitoring film," he says. "They don't give you enough information."

* __

Allen G. Breed reported from Pinellas Park, Fla., and Matt Crenson reported from New York.

* __

On the Net: http://neuroethics.upenn.edu
Copyright © 2005, The Associated Press


Check out the above link- There is an interesting article on Schiavo.
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 09:33 am
parados wrote:
Brandon's statements - I wonder if Brandon can see what is obvious to everyone else.
Quote:
It is undeniable that any large group contains a few people who are unworthy. If it actually is a tiny minority, any attempt to imply that it betrays a fundamental unworthiness of the group is invalid. It would be an invalid statistical inference in any case. I can only hope that I would not make a point I knew to be logically wrong to advance my agenda.

Quote:
You know as well as I do that every large group contains some bad elements, and unless that is also the nature of the preponderance of the members, it means nothing. Therefore, this objection of your is a poorly thought out red herring.


Now the PREVIOUS kicker from Brandon :
Quote:
If one post really says it all, this is it. You have just confirmed my belief that I am on the right side.


So.. speaking of RED HERRINGS and being 'logically wrong'. Care to explain your statements here Brandon?

In this case, you are correct. It was wrong for me to generalize to the others, from your completely sociopathic post:

parados wrote:
It's a horrible, I know, but this whole issue makes me wish Terri would hurry up and die so we can all get on with our lives and get back to what is important.

Like the Michael Jackson trial.

What you said does not permit me to validly conclude anything about them, and I was wrong to think it did.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 10:26 am
Brandon,

Thanks for recognizing that about your statement.

I in no way think you are like the man attempting to hire the killing of Michael Schiavo.

(I will leave the "black humor" discussion for another day.)
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 11:53 am
Apparently the Fox made-for-tv movie on the Schiavo case will be titled Sluts For Jesus. I am eagerly awaiting broadcast.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 12:09 pm
That's a great article, phoenix and the link at the bottom is excellent as well. Do you have a link to the article too?
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 12:14 pm
Hello Lola, I am new here. May I, without seeming too forward, say that I find nothing more fetching than a great pair of legs in black hose. Have you garters as well?

Please excuse the digression.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Mar, 2005 12:20 pm
Good link, Phoenix. There are still people "out there" that wants to perform more tests to ensure what has already been done to Terri Schiavo several times by experts in the field. They watch a short clip of a film and decide Terri has cognition - even doctors who have not personally examined Terri Schiavo. Most people do not bother to learn the history of Terri Schiavo's past, and conclude the doctors and judges are trying to "kill" her without understanding anything about what had gone on for the past 15 years. They voice their concern, but with very little knowledge of the facts.
0 Replies
 
 

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