au, I think you're gonna have difficulty esplain'g this one.
cicerone imposter wrote:au, I think you're gonna have difficulty esplain'g this one.
Yes, you are right to seize any question on the part of a debating opponent to imply stupidity. It is just exactly the way debaters of good faith behave. For just one moment, it actually sounded like au sincerely wanted to understand my opinion.
For example if someone were to put a price on the head of one the politicians on the other side of the fence. Take your pick.
au1929 wrote:For example if someone were to put a price on the head of one the politicians on the other side of the fence. Take your pick.
It is undeniable that any large group contains a few people who are unworthy. If it actually is a tiny minority, any attempt to imply that it betrays a fundamental unworthiness of the group is invalid. It would be an invalid statistical inference in any case. I can only hope that I would not make a point I knew to be logically wrong to advance my agenda.
The complication here, though, is that this man may consider the Judge to be guilty of murdering an innocent person. It's a complex issue, but I would certainly not defend an attempt to do injury to the Judge. If I believed the Judge was morally guilty of murder, I would try to work within the system to make what he did impossible in the future.
Protests Outside Schiavo Hospice Chaotic
Sat Mar 26, 7:57 AM ET U.S. National - AP
By JILL BARTON, Associated Press Writer
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away. She got there ?- one minute too late. Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye.
When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.
The delays lasted three to four minutes ?- the last of her grandfather's life.
"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."
Woodside Hospice has 70 patients besides Schiavo, whose parents are desperately trying to have her feeding tube reconnected. Dozens of protesters have arrived from across the nation since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.
Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.
"To have to maneuver through all of this and have a hostile environment outside when all they want is peace and quiet and to enjoy those few days they have left with a loved one is a horror," said Dr. Morton Getz, executive director of Douglas Gardens Hospice in Miami.
Getz said many people with a family member in a hospice have to make the same excruciating decision that courts have made for Schiavo.
"It's causing a lot of grief and questions in their own mind on whether they did the right thing," he said. "It's unconscionable to have a family member to be near the end stages of life and to get there, you have to walk through signs that say, 'Murderer.'"
Most protesters direct their signs and their chants against the courts and Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, who insists she would not want to be kept alive artificially.
But walking through a hostile environment can only add stress to what's already an emotionally draining situation.
"It probably has the same psychological effect on the residents' families as it does on someone who is walking into an abortion clinic and facing signs and aggressive behavior," said Elizabeth Foley, a Florida International University law professor who specializes in bioethics.
Over the past few days, as Schiavo's parents' attempts to have their daughter's feeding tube reinserted repeatedly failed, signs outside the hospice have grown more desperate. Doctors have said Schiavo would probably die within a week or two of the feeding tube being removed.
Messages compare Michael Schiavo to Scott Peterson (news - web sites), convicted of killing his wife and unborn child in California, and John Evander Couey, who allegedly murdered a 9-year-old girl in Homosassa.
One woman in a wheelchair regularly moves up and down sidewalks in front of the hospice yelling in a megaphone, "We're disabled, not disposable!" and "Terri is a person, not a vegetable!"
Relatives of hospice residents say the clamor ?- intended to rattle Michael Schiavo ?- rattles their patience.
"It's a real pain in the neck," said Bill Douglass, whose mother-in-law is a resident. He said the only consolation is that she is "oblivious" to the outside scene.
Police and hospice officials say they are trying to minimize the intrusion on hospice residents and their families, and that the security measures are meant to protect the privacy and safety of all residents, not just Schiavo.
But Johnson, 24, said her 73-year-old grandfather, Thomas Bone, was restricted from moving freely around the hospice grounds during his final days. He died just hours after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed and protests intensified.
"They've taken away hospice's greatest quality, that it is peaceful and serene and quiet and calming ?- and it's not fair," Johnson said.
Brandon9000 wrote:Dookiestix wrote:Brandon9000 wrote:parados wrote:It's a horrible, I know, but this whole issue makes me wish Terri would hurry up and die so we can all get on with our lives and get back to what is important.
Like the Michael Jackson trial.
If one post really says it all, this is it. You have just confirmed my belief that I am on the right side.
Geez, Brandon, is your skull really that thick?
Thick enough to think that a woman's tragic death should not be belittled and joked about, yes.
I guess it is possible for you to completely miss a sarcastic jab at the egregious role of the "liberal" media regarding this whole fiasco
Brandon9000 wrote:au1929 wrote:For example if someone were to put a price on the head of one the politicians on the other side of the fence. Take your pick.
It is undeniable that any large group contains a few people who are unworthy. If it actually is a tiny minority, any attempt to imply that it betrays a fundamental unworthiness of the group is invalid. It would be an invalid statistical inference in any case. I can only hope that I would not make a point I knew to be logically wrong to advance my agenda.
The complication here, though, is that
this man may consider the Judge to be guilty of murdering an innocent person. It's a complex issue, but I would certainly not defend an attempt to do injury to the Judge.
If I believed the Judge was morally guilty of murder, I would try to work within the system to make what he did impossible in the future.
Do you believe the judge to be morally guilty of murder, Brandon?
edgarblythe wrote:Protests Outside Schiavo Hospice Chaotic
Sat Mar 26, 7:57 AM ET U.S. National - AP
By JILL BARTON, Associated Press Writer
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. - Jennifer Johnson, barefoot and in her pajamas, ran to her grandfather's bedside once a hospice worker said his death was moments away. She got there ?- one minute too late. Johnson said the chaos outside the hospice where Terri Schiavo is dying kept her from saying goodbye.
When Johnson arrived, a police officer demanded identification; she had none. And after a hospice employee cleared her, another officer halted her for a search with a metal detector.
The delays lasted three to four minutes ?- the last of her grandfather's life.
"It's a terrible, extra obstacle to put in front of a family. ... Everything is about Schiavo," Johnson said. "It's all about her and in my family's case, it cost us dearly."
Woodside Hospice has 70 patients besides Schiavo, whose parents are desperately trying to have her feeding tube reconnected. Dozens of protesters have arrived from across the nation since the tube was removed March 18, and at least 15 have been arrested, prompting a police barricade around the facility and unprecedented security.
Family members visiting patients must pass through a police checkpoint to park, then show identification outside the door before another security screening inside. They also must walk by scores of signs decrying Schiavo's "crucifixion," "torture," and "starvation," plus navigate around hordes of media who have been camped outside.
"To have to maneuver through all of this and have a hostile environment outside when all they want is peace and quiet and to enjoy those few days they have left with a loved one is a horror," said Dr. Morton Getz, executive director of Douglas Gardens Hospice in Miami.
Getz said many people with a family member in a hospice have to make the same excruciating decision that courts have made for Schiavo.
"It's causing a lot of grief and questions in their own mind on whether they did the right thing," he said. "It's unconscionable to have a family member to be near the end stages of life and to get there, you have to walk through signs that say, 'Murderer.'"
Most protesters direct their signs and their chants against the courts and Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, who insists she would not want to be kept alive artificially.
But walking through a hostile environment can only add stress to what's already an emotionally draining situation.
"It probably has the same psychological effect on the residents' families as it does on someone who is walking into an abortion clinic and facing signs and aggressive behavior," said Elizabeth Foley, a Florida International University law professor who specializes in bioethics.
Over the past few days, as Schiavo's parents' attempts to have their daughter's feeding tube reinserted repeatedly failed, signs outside the hospice have grown more desperate. Doctors have said Schiavo would probably die within a week or two of the feeding tube being removed.
Messages compare Michael Schiavo to Scott Peterson (news - web sites), convicted of killing his wife and unborn child in California, and John Evander Couey, who allegedly murdered a 9-year-old girl in Homosassa.
One woman in a wheelchair regularly moves up and down sidewalks in front of the hospice yelling in a megaphone, "We're disabled, not disposable!" and "Terri is a person, not a vegetable!"
Relatives of hospice residents say the clamor ?- intended to rattle Michael Schiavo ?- rattles their patience.
"It's a real pain in the neck," said Bill Douglass, whose mother-in-law is a resident. He said the only consolation is that she is "oblivious" to the outside scene.
Police and hospice officials say they are trying to minimize the intrusion on hospice residents and their families, and that the security measures are meant to protect the privacy and safety of all residents, not just Schiavo.
But Johnson, 24, said her 73-year-old grandfather, Thomas Bone, was restricted from moving freely around the hospice grounds during his final days. He died just hours after Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed and protests intensified.
"They've taken away hospice's greatest quality, that it is peaceful and serene and quiet and calming ?- and it's not fair," Johnson said.
That is so sad...and makes me want to choke all these rubberneckers, give them a back hand and tell them to go home and mind their own freakin' business. The Uh Oh squad we call them.
They oughtta watch it on television and computer, like the rest of us.
Brandon9000 wrote:au1929 wrote:Brandon
If things had been reversed would you be speaking out of the other side of your mouth?
I would like to answer you, but I need you to clarify the question. What do you mean, "if things had been reversed?"
If you mean, had Terri been allowed to live, would I be taunting the people who wanted her to die, this is one of a small number of issues on which I would refrain from so doing, since the topic is so tragic.
Things were reversed, and in Texas no less:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_texas_law
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/3084934
Where was all the stink when this happened, Brandon? Why are you not willing to look at Dr. Frist's past and how uproariously hypocritical he's been regarding his current actions in Congress?
This is what we call "reversed," Brandon. Your definition of "reversed" is so far removed from reality.
I saw that. Shades of Dr Strangelove.
Schiavo Judge Attains New Fame, Infamy
Sat Mar 26, 4:00 PM ET U.S. National - AP
By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer
CLEARWATER, Fla. - Amid the pitched legal battle over Terri Schiavo that has been fought through his court, Pinellas County Circuit Judge George Greer has been under the protection of armed guards, and friends say his family also is protected.
Death threats have been made against him for allowing Michael Schiavo to remove the feeding tube that has kept his 41-year-old wife alive for the past 15 years, and the Southern Baptist church that Greer belonged to for years has asked him to leave the congregation.
Greer ?- a conservative Christian and longtime Republican known for an easy manner ?- has become the public face of the judiciary in this internationally watched fight. But despite the mounting pressure, he has been steadfast in his rulings that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state and did not want to be kept alive artificially.
"There are very few people who have shown the will to stand up to raw power," said Stetson University Law Professor Michael Allen, who has studied the Schiavo case. "He's one."
"This is simply a case of people not liking this decision, and the fact that a judge is standing up to this is quite important," Allen added.
On Saturday, Greer rejected arguments by Terri Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, that their daughter tried to say "I want to live" before her feeding tube was removed March 18. They argued that she said "AHHHHH" and "WAAAAAAA" when asked to repeat the phrase.
Greer said that "all of the credible medical evidence this court has received over the last five years" suggests Schiavo's behavior is not a product of cognitive awareness. Doctors have said Schiavo's past utterances were involuntary moans consistent with someone in a vegetative state.
When informed of Greer's rejection, Bob Schindler reacted with somber sarcasm: "He did? Great surprise."
It was Greer who first ruled that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state and would not want to be kept alive artificially. Three times he has ordered the feeding tube be removed, as requested by Michael Schiavo, and his rulings have consistently been upheld in appeals filed by the Schindlers.
Greer, 63, also stood up to congressional efforts to intervene in the case, rejecting an attempt by the House of Representatives to subpoena Terry Schiavo as a means to force the reinsertion of her feeding tube. Since then, other judges have followed in refusing to act under a newly crafted federal law allowing them to consider the case.
Greer, a former county commissioner, became a judge in 1992. He was recently re-elected to a six-year term, but has announced that he will retire once that term is up.
While in legal circles he is garnering acclaim for his consistent application of Florida law in the case, there has been a price.
Does anyone have the link to the story about the boy in Texas who was allowed to die over his mother's objections? If you do please PM it to me. I am in a running argument, and I don't think that I have the time or the energy to wade through 1100 posts!
oh he got there first.
fast.
hmm.
poor Phoenix
she's going to be inundated
