3
   

Existence is necessarily omnipotent and omniscient

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 02:29 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Good luck with your river cruise. Sounds like a good one.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 07:42 pm
@fresco,
Yea, looking forward to it. American Cruise Line usually has very good food, so I hope we're not disappointed. We did the Lower Mississippi River cruise with them, and it was excellent. If they maintain their service and food quality, we'll probably book the Upper Mississippi and/or the East Coast cruises some time in the future. What I like about their meals is that we can ask for half portions to cut back on food waste. Wine and beer is free for lunch and dinner, and they usually have a cocktail hour at 5pm for drinks and horderves. The entertainment isn't the best, but everything else makes up for it.
0 Replies
 
brianjakub
 
  0  
Sun 21 Oct, 2018 08:23 pm
@fresco,
Derrida is trying to argue the same subjective idealism that George Berkeley was. That point of view is only accepted by academia promoting atheistic points of view where, philosophical musings do not have to hold up to rigors of real life situations.

Objective Idealism and naive realism are the philosophies guiding my peers in the heartland of the USA.

It appears to me you keep trying to repackage subjective idealism with a new name supporting your not of view.

There is a resurgence in this view point due to the fact that a bunch of theoretical physicists are jumping on the band wagon to give them cover when they propose ridiculous theories on the origins of the universe that cannot be imagined or understood in reality.
fresco
 
  1  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 01:22 am
@brianjakub,
No. Not unsurprisingly, you don't understand either Berkeley or Derrida.
The key issue is that you are an apologist for theism. You are the one doing the 'repackaging'. Your phrase 'in reality' indicates you that you think that human concepts have ontological status independent of their human functionality. For me 'theism' is of little more significance than 'footballism', which gives 'meaning' to the lives of others.
I have nothing more to add.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 06:53 am
@fresco,
Quote:
No. Not unsurprisingly, you don't understand either Berkeley or Derrida.


You assume that if everybody just reads the same gobbledygook that you do, we will understand what you understand. Well I guess gobbledygook can mean whatever you want it to mean so its easy to avoid an substantial argument that way. Well many reputable scholars don't see it that way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Derrida
Quote:
Criticism from analytic philosophers
Though Derrida addressed the American Philosophical Association on at least one occasion in 1988,[132] and was highly regarded by some contemporary philosophers like Richard Rorty, Alexander Nehamas,[133] and Stanley Cavell, his work has been regarded by other analytic philosophers, such as John Searle and Willard Van Orman Quine,[134] as pseudophilosophy or sophistry.

Some analytic philosophers have in fact claimed, since at least the 1980s, that Derrida's work is "not philosophy." One of the main arguments they gave was alleging that Derrida's influence had not been on US philosophy departments but on literature and other humanities disciplines.[88][93]

In his 1989 Contingency, Irony, and Solidarity, Richard Rorty argues that Derrida (especially in his book, The Post Card: From Socrates to Freud and Beyond, one section of which is an experiment in fiction) purposefully uses words that cannot be defined (e.g., différance), and uses previously definable words in contexts diverse enough to make understanding impossible, so that the reader will never be able to contextualize Derrida's literary self. Rorty, however, argues that this intentional obfuscation is philosophically grounded. In garbling his message Derrida is attempting to escape the naïve, positive metaphysical projects of his predecessors.[135]

Philosopher Sir Roger Scruton wrote in 2004, "He's difficult to summarise because it's nonsense. He argues that the meaning of a sign is never revealed in the sign but deferred indefinitely and that a sign only means something by virtue of its difference from something else. For Derrida, there is no such thing as meaning – it always eludes us and therefore anything goes."[136]

On Derrida's scholarship and writing style, Noam Chomsky wrote "I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually childhood".[137]

Paul R. Gross and Norman Levitt also criticized his work for misusing scientific terms and concepts in Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels With Science (1994).[citation needed]


Three quarrels (or disputes) in particular went out of academic circles and received international mass media coverage: the 1972–88 quarrel with John Searle, the analytic philosophers' pressures on Cambridge University not to award Derrida an honorary degree, and a dispute with Richard Wolin and the NYRB.


The universe is made up of information. The information is very old. The information obviously tells a stories (stories like "squirrels make baby squirrels and they then take care of their young." and " Humans make baby humans and then teach their young to moral and create new things.")

Since, the stories are very old and, the universe is very large and, we are very small and young compared to the story, it is hard for us to determine the author. This hardship is no excuse for you and Derrida to bury your head in the sand of gobbldygook and make up your own authoress story even though the scope and age of the information tells a lot about the author.

Berkley did not do that even though his sbjective idealism lead many others to do so. I think he made less sense than Derrida and you. At least you are consistent.

Quote:
I have nothing more to add.


I think you mean, "I have nothing more to learn. I am already a tremendous wordsmith"

brianjakub
 
  0  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 07:35 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:

Berkley did not do that even though his sbjective idealism lead many others to do so. I think he made less sense than Derrida and you. At least you are consistent.


I think I was wrong here. Berkley is being a true protestant by assuming its up to the individual to determine who the Creator (Jesus is) and there is no authoritative interpretation of the truth.
fresco
 
  2  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 09:00 am
@brianjakub,
Thanks for confirming your lack of understanding. The pro vs anti Derrida issue is somewhat past its sell-by date, as indeed is Chomsky's impact on linguistic analysis, and he never had much on philosophy per se. But far me it from me to curtail your cutting and pasting activities!
brianjakub
 
  0  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 03:33 pm
@fresco,
Everything is past its sell date, there's nothing new under the sun. The information in the universe and the systems it operates under haven't changed in billions of years. There is only one way to understand information and that is to transmit information and to receive it. You must think of the information and turn it into symbols. Then store it in something that can transmit it. And if you want to do something with that information you have to build a receiver that can receive it and understand it and do something with it.

The end.

The only reason to complicate that pattern is if you want to distort the meaning of the information and the purpose of the receiver.

I think you would like it if I didn't understand you. You like it when you can distort the information to mean what you want so you can define its purpose. Well you go ahead with your distorting and I'll just keep straightening it out.
livinglava
 
  0  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 05:31 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

The universe is made up of information. The information is very old. The information obviously tells a stories (stories like "squirrels make baby squirrels and they then take care of their young." and " Humans make baby humans and then teach their young to moral and create new things.")

Since, the stories are very old and, the universe is very large and, we are very small and young compared to the story, it is hard for us to determine the author. This hardship is no excuse for you and Derrida to bury your head in the sand of gobbldygook and make up your own authoress story even though the scope and age of the information tells a lot about the author.

The point is that authorship and the capacity to represent information in narratives of cause and effect exist. The fact that they exist means that the capacity for them to happen was latent in the universe for as long as the universe has existed. Nothing emerges whose potential wasn't latent in the antecedent conditions from which it emerged.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Mon 22 Oct, 2018 05:57 pm
@livinglava,
Quote:
Nothing emerges who's potential wasn't latent in the anntecendent conditions from which it emerged.


So what do you think was there to author the information we know as matter? What was hidden waitng to be revealed by the information we observe?
fresco
 
  2  
Tue 23 Oct, 2018 12:50 am
@brianjakub,
Quote:
The information in the universe and the systems it operates under haven't changed in billions of years.

Laughing ....said the theistic absolutist naive realist ! .....The End.
brianjakub
 
  0  
Tue 23 Oct, 2018 05:34 am
@fresco,
You forgot objective idealist who believes the objective intelligence subjected itself to a human body so we can learn objective truth while being subjected to a human body.

But thank you for the compliment. Wink
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Tue 23 Oct, 2018 06:08 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:

Quote:
Nothing emerges who's potential wasn't latent in the anntecendent conditions from which it emerged.


So what do you think was there to author the information we know as matter? What was hidden waitng to be revealed by the information we observe?

I think you have to look for the essence of what authorship is in its most primordial form. It is the same with everything: each form evolves from some antecedent form. If you keep going backward in time, you will discover ever more primordial forms that preceded more evolved forms that succeeded them.

E.g. if you look at a smartphone and trace it back to laptop computers, which trace back to desktop computers, which trace back to rooms full of integrated circuits and vacuum tubes before them, you eventually get back to Babbage and others who designed mechanical computers, etc. until you find people who could imagine various ideas for mechanical information processors but who couldn't actually build them for whatever reason. Then you can keep tracing back that spirit of imagining creative possibilities to earlier humans and eventually find some primordial variation of it in animals, which in turn must have developed it from some earlier potential latent in pre-biological matter, etc.

The challenge is to keep tracing something back without reaching a point where you just dismiss the earlier predecessor form as something radically different from its far-evolved progeny. It's like when people claim there's no 'missing link' between humans and primates and that humans can't 'come from' monkeys. They are running into their own cognitive limits for recognizing commonality between present-day forms. If you can't see, for example, that everything with eyes is related through some common ancestor from which all eyed-organisms must have evolved, then you just don't understand the process of creation-through-evolution, imo. Everything is created from some antecedent form that it emerged from as a variation. That's fundamental to evolutionary theory, but it is also fundamental to understanding the metaphysics of creation as a process that transcends any specific instance of creation in any given historical context.

brianjakub
 
  -1  
Tue 23 Oct, 2018 10:11 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
Then you can keep tracing back that spirit of imaginative creative possibilities to earlier humans and eventually find some primordial variation of it in animals, which in turn must have developed it from some earlier potential latent in pre-biological matter, etc.
. That is an assumtion without a pattern. There is no evidence of an earlier potential latent in pre-biological matter. There isn’t any evidence that matter is intelligent even in biology. It looks like dualism is true.

Quote:
I think you have to look at the essence of what authorship is in its primordial form.


An author in its most primordial form is someone who has an idea and the ability to communicate it isn’t it?

The most primordial author of a smartphone is the author who thought of the “new idea” isn’t it?
livinglava
 
  0  
Wed 24 Oct, 2018 05:36 pm
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:
That is an assumtion without a pattern. There is no evidence of an earlier potential latent in pre-biological matter. There isn’t any evidence that matter is intelligent even in biology. It looks like dualism is true.

The potential for biological complexity to evolve in an aqueous environment is latent in the electromagnetic characteristics of water molecules and ionized compounds that dissolve in water.

Quote:
An author in its most primordial form is someone who has an idea and the ability to communicate it isn’t it?

No, human creativity evolved from earlier cognitive abilities, which in turn evolved from still earlier abilities, etc. Who knows what our current form of intelligence will evolve to become in the next few millennia, if we survive? Future intelligence may look back and wonder why we considered ourselves so intelligent, or they may look back in awe at how intelligent we were given what we had to work with at the time, i.e. the way we look back on the ancient societies and their incredible cultural and technological/architectural achievements.

Quote:
The most primordial author of a smartphone is the author who thought of the “new idea” isn’t it?

No, you can trace anything and everything further into the past. Nothing emerges from nothing. Everything is spawned from a more primordial form. It's a chicken-egg problem.
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sat 27 Oct, 2018 06:32 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
The potential for biological complexity to evolve in an aqueous environment is latent in the electromagnetic characteristics of water molecules and ionized compounds that dissolve in water.


I disagree. The ingredients are there. The potential for biological complexity exists in the mind that can organize the ingredients.

I don't say the potential for a loaf of bread lies in my kitchen because I have a bag of flour and an oven.

The potential for bread exists because SOMEONE built an oven and SOMEONE raised a crop of wheat and SOMEONE built a flour mill. and I made the bread in my kitchen.

The same pattern is ALWAYS FOLLOWED when a complex system is being observed with complex results.

Some systems are just so old and have operated so effectively for a long period of time that it is assumed that they always existed.

I believe that is what you are assuming here. Am I wrong and if so why?

Why is it not better to assume that the pattern we observe today (things that are created always have a creator) followed through consistently into the ancient past?
brianjakub
 
  1  
Sat 27 Oct, 2018 06:37 am
@livinglava,
Quote:
No, human creativity evolved from earlier cognitive abilities, which in turn evolved from still earlier abilities, etc. Who knows what our current form of intelligence will evolve to become in the next few millennia, if we survive? Future intelligence may look back and wonder why we considered ourselves so intelligent, or they may look back in awe at how intelligent we were given what we had to work with at the time, i.e. the way we look back on the ancient societies and their incredible cultural and technological/architectural achievements


I believe evolution is the way all complex systems are developed. (My 2017 Ford F-150 evolved from a 2012 model which evolved from a 2009 model which eventually evolved from a model T which evolved from a Model A).

But all evolution of complex systems require new information and new information always starts out as an idea in someone's intelligent mind. Even if the system is so old and has been operating so long that it is hard to identify the author.
0 Replies
 
livinglava
 
  0  
Sat 27 Oct, 2018 10:31 am
@brianjakub,
brianjakub wrote:
I disagree. The ingredients are there. The potential for biological complexity exists in the mind that can organize the ingredients.

But the human mind is just part of a broader evolving system.

Quote:
I don't say the potential for a loaf of bread lies in my kitchen because I have a bag of flour and an oven.

No, but the potential for wheat lay in the grasses that evolved into wheat in tandem with human stewardship. The yeasts that makes it rise evolved naturally before they were cultivated by humans. Biomass was cooked and roasted in various ways naturally before humans developed the ability to control fire and heat.

Quote:
The potential for bread exists because SOMEONE built an oven and SOMEONE raised a crop of wheat and SOMEONE built a flour mill. and I made the bread in my kitchen.

No, someone was able to build an oven because they had a brain and hands that allowed them control fire and understand that they can contain convection currents within an enclosed box. They learned to grind flour by hold rocks in their hands and smashing grains against other rocks and collecting them in woven baskets, clay pots, etc.

Quote:
The same pattern is ALWAYS FOLLOWED when a complex system is being observed with complex results.

The human brain evolved together with human hands, legs, feet, etc. That is how God created and continues to create the creation. We are part of that, which can be described using the phrase, "made in His image."

Quote:
Some systems are just so old and have operated so effectively for a long period of time that it is assumed that they always existed.

Well, in one sense they have always existed and in another they are the latest version of something older that ended when they began.

Quote:
I believe that is what you are assuming here. Am I wrong and if so why?

Why is it not better to assume that the pattern we observe today (things that are created always have a creator) followed through consistently into the ancient past?

They do, but their is no fundamental distinction between conscious/intentional creation and natural evolution. Our brains perceive their own thoughts and actions they willfully cause as being fundamentally different than other natural processes, which they perceive as unconscious/unintentional/subconscious; but in reality the brain itself is a collection of ion-solutions seeping through semi-permeable cell membranes causing action-potential nerve signal patterns. We experience those as conscious/intentional thoughts and wilful actions, but ultimately they are just a byproduct of the mechanical functioning of that organic machine/system that is the brain.
SaraJohn
 
  -1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2018 09:13 am
@fresco,
I disagree. I think there is no problem with thesis
fresco
 
  1  
Tue 6 Nov, 2018 11:28 am
@SaraJohn,
.....your point by point reasons being ?
(This is a debate, not a vote)
0 Replies
 
 

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