Do Agnostics and Athiests simply reject faith?

also, im sure that most have you have heard the expression 'the big bastard in the sky' which is often used by atheists. well This doesnt necissarilly mean they believe in him does it? the athiesits that are supposedle 'pissed at god' more likely find it impossible to believe in a god cos of all the crap that happens on earth, surely?

axl's squeeze,

I like debate.You have a chance of meeting other people half way sometimes and you can learn from that if you're tolerant and sweet as you must be to have bagged Axl.You might even read that book I pointed you at and you would be on your way.Read,read,read.Real teaching is in good books.

The same way that the Agnostics and Athiests on this board claim that the majority of believers are sheeple and destructive. Personal Experience.




This is exactly what I am saying - what does it mean to be absent of a belief? I have no clue how to be absent of a belief - now - another belief (such that there is no explicit evidence) can be formed that God does not exist - but the lack of a belief doesn't even make sense.

Let's say I wanted to look for evidence of a God - I read the bible, Koran, and other scriptures - I prayed - I tithed - and lead a scriptural life in the search for God - and NOTHING (in my experience) happened to give me evidence for God - I would not have the lack of faith - I would have Faith that God did no exist.

They might not have faith in any Gods - but they have faith (i.e. that there are no Gods).

The Weak View of Athiesm agrees with this assumption but the Strong View wants to claim that the rejection of Theism is somehow done with a fiat of will - that does not entail a faith. I reject this view and am not sure how Strong Athiesm can claim that it rejects a faith - but does not do so by generating another faith (in the claim that God's do not exist).

If they claim to have knowledge - it must be guided by some sort of proof - the proof of a negative - which we know to be impossible.

If they claim to have an opinion - how is that more valid that the theists faith?

If they claim to have ignorance - well that is no argument at all.

So what 'thing' do the athiests have at thier disposal, besides faith, to reject the faith of the theist.

TTF

Jason

If you are trying to equate the position of agnostics and soft atheists with the "faith" nonsense that is the essence of theism...you are over-reaching by light years.

There is no "faith" involved in taking a position of "I do not know" or "I am unwilling to accept that particular guess"...at least, no "faith" in the sense that a theist uses that word.

Frankly, I have trouble understanding why you are insisting that agnostic and soft atheist positions are positions of "faith"...unless the reason is that you see the absurdity of theistic "faith" and want to deal with it in an "and so's yer ole man" manner?


By the way...earlier you wrote:



No agnostic worth his/her salt would say "you cannot know." If there is a God...and that God wanted to make Itself known....it would have no trouble doing so.

Doesn't seem to have happened, though....so either there is no God or if there is, It doesn't want to make Itself known.

Frank, I really find it interesting that those theists are using the word "faith" for people who do not think like them. That's a sort of revelation of how much they have been brain-washed IMHO.

Wrong. I have a lovely life with lots of promise. I don't believe in God.

thethinkfactory, it works like this....

I don't know how the universe began.

Person A told me that a pink elephant did it, but he can't show much evidence and it seems like a silly idea, so I don't believe it

Person B told me that a god did it, but he can't show much evidence and it seems like a silly idea, so I don't believe it.

I still don't know how the universe began.

What faith system have I submitted to?

I am an atheist. I have no belief in God. Do not confuse this with an absolute refusal of any God. No, I just have a lack of faith in any higher being. I was born into a very unreligious family. Well, thats not completely true. My grandmother and step-grandfather were both religion freaks. I remember many summers where we would have to go up there, and time and time again they would try to brainwash us into a belief in God. Time and time again I saw the look my mother would make after it was revealed to her what my grandparents had said. A roll of her eyes, and a deep sigh. She would allow us to grow our own beliefs, which is a position I certainly respect, seeing as how it was through this system that I am who I am today.

Well, since I was truely brought up without religion (except those especially annoying summers), I never grew to believe in God. Or Allah, or whichever deity you would like to believe in. I found no comfort in the fact that there is an all-knowing entity above us all, looking and guiding us.

Of course, there is also the introversion of that, since I also grew up without a fear of God. Never does it cross my mind that God is judging me. I don't consider the fact that I may to go hell.

Now, some of you may be wondering what I do believe. It is simple, my friends, I believe in simple morality. I believe in my personal convictions. My conscience. Remember that? I've found too many Christians mistake their conscience for God. Do you know how many times I've been asked how I could be a nice or moral person if I didn't believe in God? These people honestly believe that the only way they coudl ever be a good person is through god, and that is so unbelievably pathetic I don't know what to think.

I'm sorry if that seems a bit harsh, but it honestly is the way I feel. Some people may feel that I am pathetic for not having faith. But the way I see it, if faith is founded on a fear, what good does it do? It seems it would do more harm than good.

Now, in terms of an afterlife, I believe that there is no such thing. An afterlife seems like an oxymoron to me. After life, there is nothing. Just as the time before a person was concived. Can you recall that time? No, because it was pure nothingness. You did not exist. Neither shall you exist after life has ended.

Some have said to me that without an afterlife, why don't I go kill myself. If you don't believe in an afterlife, you should commit suicide? What the ****? Wouldn't a complete absence of... anything at all be a deterant for suicide? Honestly, if the afterlife is so much better than this life, why doesn't every Christian go and kill themselves? Won't they be closer to God?

Sometimes, it seems that ignorance will never allow my beliefs to be held in a fair light. It is sad, but, ultimately, especially here in Texas (A.K.A. Redneck Heaven), my views cannot be declared publically, for my own personal safety. So, here I lay, typing in a screen, all my ideas of life and a certain lack there of. Perhaps someday...

Nordic, people who have been brought up in a theistic way of thinking find it difficult to understand your point of view, not least because they are taught to deny your point of view and to fear it and to stop themselves from "denying" a god.

Also, they see your point of view as denial of everything they think they are (which it pretty much is)

Good luck with surviving Texas. Come on over to Australia, the weather is similar but our rednecks have less guns.

NordicC, Welcome to A2K.

No they wouldn't. Suicide is considered one of the greatest sins against God and would put a person further away from God instead of closer.

You have every right to your opinions and I respect that. It seems that you do not have any basis in fact for your belief other than that is what you grew up with.

I reckon if I was making up a story about how wonderful heaven is, I'd have to come up with a "no cheating" rule too.

You don't have to make it up. You can read all about it in a book that they call the Bible. Of course, you probably wouldn't believe anything that you would read in there. On the other hand, you probably wouldn't believe anything that is written in history books or perhaps the daily paper either since since you did not have a hand in writing it.

I am somewhat at a loss as to what you are referring to as a no cheating rule. Has nothing to do with cheating.

Well it's obvious. If you promise that good people all go to heaven when they die, people would all suicide at the first opportunity unless you make it part of the rules that you are disqualified if you do that.

No different to the clause in life insurance contracts, meets the same purpose.

I can't imagine why else suicide would be bad in the eyes of gods, can you?

Oh and I believe that a great deal of the bible and the history books is probably true.

I also believe that a great deal of the bible and the history books is probably false.

Some of these things I can varify to be more or less true. Some of these things fools will accept to be true no matter what verification might indicate.

So, you DO believe in Heaven based on your remark above. That is a good start. Where is it written that "all good people go to Heaven?" What is "good" and who determines what "good" is? What is Heaven?



Yes, I can see why suicide would be bad in the eyes of God. It is a sin. Killing is a sin and it is no different killing yourself than killing another human being.

No I don't believe in heaven at all. No idea where you got that idea.

Being a sin doesn't make it bad. The word sin is the same as the word bad in this context. I'll rephrase.....

I can't imagine why else suicide would be a sin.

TTF

I cannot accept your reasoning.
A man, like me that doesn't believe in God, is not only a non-believer. I believe in a physical world, I believe I interact with it being part of it, I believe my reason cannot go behind my experience conditions (not very far from Kant, as you see). So, the fact that I don't believe in God has to do with his transcendent nature.
An atheist has his own representation of the world, like a theist does. But in his perspective of the world there is no place for a transcendent being like God.
I believe in many things. Some of them exclude the possibility of a God or any non-physical entity. I am not "absent of belief", as you said. I have other beliefs, incompatible with the belief in a God.

val, who's reasoning can't you accept?

Mine I think, from the previous page.

Yes, some atheists have beliefs, indeed some believe there is no god. (I am one of those also) but that position cannot be PROVED and theists use this to suggest that our systems of belief are equally likely (which is not true)

Not all atheists have beliefs. Atheists by definition simply lack a god belief and this is true of all atheists. Babies are atheists, and they have no beliefs.

Some change the word atheist to agnostic, the word definitions vary but the "sets" of people remain the same regardless

Eorl

I was replying to a former statement of TTF (thethinkfactory).

But, I must insist that the problem is not to believe there is no God. It is to believe, or have, a view of the world, where entities like God have no place.
I am not worried about proofs. As I said, I believe in a physical world. If others believe that there is an entity external to that physical world, an "immaterial" entity, it is them who must give the proof of it. But before, they should clarify what they mean by "immaterial". Saying that something is not material doesn't explain what that thing is.