Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 04:03 pm
Rex

You wrote:

Quote:
Are you saying Frank these religions specifically the Bible do not discuss the spirit or the idea of knowing?


I did not say that at all.

Read what I wrote. Comment on that.


Quote:
You really have no proof that they are "dreams"... only your opinion, which is fine.


I never said they were "dreams"...I said "Mostly, religion dreams up supposed answers...and the "faithful" merely accept those supposed answers blindly. "

And that is exactly what religions do...and what religious adherents do.


Quote:
In all fairness they could actually be historical events peering through a difficult translation... Or recorded events of rare supernatural phenomenon...


And in all fairness...maybe elephants can be trained to tightrope walk across the Grand Canyon...but I would not be betting on that.

In any case...religious adherents currently blindly accept the assertions of the ancient superstitious Hebrews who wrote the Bible.



Quote:

Ultimate reality? That is assuming reality is singular...
The Bible talks about heaven and paradise, heaven is one reality and paradise is another... We, here on the earth, seem to be in a reality that could technically be... paradise, heaven, hell or neither of the above...


If the REALITY is that there is a heaven and an earth and a paradise and a middle earth...then that is the REALITY.

I do not know what the REALITY (what I often refer to as the Ultimate REALITY)....and I think religious guesses about it are absurd.


Quote:
But to say that concrete realities do not exist is to dismiss the character of reality itself and the all encompassing scope of infinite variety contained therein.


Yes it is...and that is why I would never say such a thing.

DO NOT CREATE STRAWMEN AND ARGUE AGAINST THEM, Rex. It is unethical and cheap.


Quote:
Is reality contained within the boundaries of perception or something outside of our understanding?


I have no idea of what the REALITY is...and I strongly suspect neither you nor any of your fellow theists do either.


Quote:
If we are to allow that reality is subjective then reality becomes myth but if we are to search for clarity then reality becomes law and justice.


I cannot even conceive of REALITY being subjective. REALITY is whatever IS.


Quote:
If by subjection or laws, still, reality becomes a slave to mastery of intellect...
To seek the true nature of reality it must not come from a law or subjection but from itself. From the core of it's very own breath and character. So how do we get reality to speak to us and teach us?
Well we have to have the machinery to listen.. It takes rebuilding the radio tower so it picks up a signal of a different frequency...


Not sure what you are getting at here...but it doesn't make any sense to me.

REALITY IS WHATEVER IT IS.



Quote:
The scriptures are a great mind opener for the world...


Yes...and so are the Mother Goose tales and Aesop's Fables.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 07:02 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Rex

Quote:
Are you saying Frank these religions specifically the Bible do not discuss the spirit or the idea of knowing?


I did not say that at all.

Read what I wrote. Comment on that.
You wrote:
Religion...attempts to deal with questions about Ultimate Reality.

I have never seen any indication at all that any of the religious "explanations" for Reality...has anything whatever to do with "knowing."

Comment:
You must read over them without thinking of the words... Because you are so certain (or you "know") they are wrong...
Here is one reference where the Bible is not talking about only the truth as it is but also the process of knowing.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,


Quote:
You really have no proof that they are "dreams"... only your opinion, which is fine.


I never said they were "dreams"...I said "Mostly, religion dreams up supposed answers...and the "faithful" merely accept those supposed answers blindly. "

And that is exactly what religions do...and what religious adherents do.

Comment:
If something is dreamed up isn't it a dream? At least try to be a bit more logical...
Blindly, that word applies better to you... you have your stipulation that no one can "know" and that is it... that is "blind" to the possibility that maybe some who have the fortitude to know "do" find the truth..


Quote:
In all fairness they could actually be historical events peering through a difficult translation... Or recorded events of rare supernatural phenomenon...


And in all fairness...maybe elephants can be trained to tightrope walk across the Grand Canyon...but I would not be betting on that.

In any case...religious adherents currently blindly accept the assertions of the ancient superstitious Hebrews who wrote the Bible.

Comment: Comparing elephants with God? Why not circus clowns this time Frank? When it is from a religious person it is superstition but when it is a decree that no on can "know" it is truth? Double standard...

Quote:

Ultimate reality? That is assuming reality is singular...
The Bible talks about heaven and paradise, heaven is one reality and paradise is another... We, here on the earth, seem to be in a reality that could technically be... paradise, heaven, hell or neither of the above...


If the REALITY is that there is a heaven and an earth and a paradise and a middle earth...then that is the REALITY.

I do not know what the REALITY (what I often refer to as the Ultimate REALITY)....and I think religious guesses about it are absurd.

Comment: Provided they are guesses... but by your own "religion" you are not allowed to entertain a "guess" as you call it. Yet you can guess that someone else's opinion is absurd... Double standard again.


Quote:
But to say that concrete realities do not exist is to dismiss the character of reality itself and the all encompassing scope of infinite variety contained therein.


Yes it is...and that is why I would never say such a thing.

Comment: No you adamantly says the opposite. We cannot concretely know reality...

You wrote:
DO NOT CREATE STRAWMEN AND ARGUE AGAINST THEM, Rex. It is unethical and cheap.

Comment:
Did someone tell you this in one of your posts and you decided to drop it here? Strawmen? Unethical and cheap? Are you not getting any at home or just plain cranky today? I have a valid point to this post and if that threatens your position on the matter, well, I can't please everyone...


Quote:
Is reality contained within the boundaries of perception or something outside of our understanding?


I have no idea of what the REALITY is...and I strongly suspect neither you nor any of your fellow theists do either.

Comment: key word "strongly" as if to force all to your own "religion"...


Quote:
If we are to allow that reality is subjective then reality becomes myth but if we are to search for clarity then reality becomes law and justice.


I cannot even conceive of REALITY being subjective. REALITY is whatever IS.

Comment:
Yet you subject reality to your doubt...


Quote:
If by subjection or laws, still, reality becomes a slave to mastery of intellect...
To seek the true nature of reality it must not come from a law or subjection but from itself. From the core of it's very own breath and character. So how do we get reality to speak to us and teach us?
Well we have to have the machinery to listen.. It takes rebuilding the radio tower so it picks up a signal of a different frequency...


Not sure what you are getting at here...but it doesn't make any sense to me.

Comment: Sorry to overburden your thinking capacity with an allegory. I know they are tough to get sometimes...

REALITY IS WHATEVER IT IS.

Comment:
And that is?

Quote:
The scriptures are a great mind opener for the world...


You wrote:
Yes...and so are the Mother Goose tales and Aesop's Fables.


Comment:
After all mother Goose teaches one how to obtain eternity and their standing in the family of God...... I can see why you see both books on the same level now... (sarchasm)

Hope you enjoyed the holiday Frank

Peace with God
0 Replies
 
paulaj
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 11:31 pm
There is only blindness for those who can't "see". How does one "see" clearly? Certainly not through a tainted or clouded lens.
0 Replies
 
paulaj
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 11:35 pm
Re: Able2Know
RexRed wrote:


What will knowing bring me? Status in society? Answers? More questions? Peace or unending conflict?

I would say you already know. Isn't it nice. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 04:15 am
Rex...your thinking is so distorted...I'm not even going to bother.

Continue to kid yourself. It gets you through life.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 02:55 pm
Frank,

The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.

Helen Keller
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 03:07 pm
RexRed wrote:
Frank,

The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.

Helen Keller


Btw, I know a citation anything that your hand cannot touch is of the Secondary realm

<Man's Secondary world is a reality constructed entirely by his mind>
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 03:07 pm
Could be.

But the god you folks worship certainly doesn't fall into that category.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 03:09 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Could be.

But the god you folks worship certainly doesn't fall into that category.


Mine falls in that categorie : no God.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Mar, 2005 03:25 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Could be.

But the god you folks worship certainly doesn't fall into that category.


1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 04:33 am
RexRed wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Could be.

But the god you folks worship certainly doesn't fall into that category.


1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:



Mairzy Doats And Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?
Milton Drake, 1943
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 01:15 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
RexRed wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
Could be.

But the god you folks worship certainly doesn't fall into that category.


1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:



Mairzy Doats And Dozy Doats and liddle lamzy divey A kiddley divey too, wouldn't you?
Milton Drake, 1943


Frank, your insolence and insensitivity are prime reasons why I choose to be a Christian. If you get the same thing from both statements then you have no sense of the meaning of words... Maybe a good song but in the end you still lose the point.

A scientific test was just conducted on a mass scale across the US. If you are interested look for it on the internet yourself.

They asked children on a variety of grade levels in school about certain issues. These issues were primarily related to things considered "virtues". Questions like if someone hit you, what do you do to get them back? Well guess how the agnostic and atheist kids did? Horribly! They scored so low there were not even categories to put them in. The Christian children did remarkably but understandably well. They comprehended things like equality and forgiveness at considerably younger ages than their athiest agnostic counterparts.

So you can sing your little ditty Frank, but I have real concrete proof that I am right. Every day it proves itself even more.

2 Peter 1:3
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 01:30 pm
Ah, no fair rexred.

If you make such bizarre claims you must reference them!

Otherwise we shall give them the credence I suspect they deserve.

I should be most interested to look at the scientific credibility of such a "scientific test" - as, no doubt, would many others.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 01:51 pm
dlowan wrote:
Ah, no fair rexred.

If you make such bizarre claims you must reference them!

Otherwise we shall give them the credence I suspect they deserve.

I should be most interested to look at the scientific credibility of such a "scientific test" - as, no doubt, would many others.


ok I will tell you where to look to find it...

It was reported about roughly a week ago on Fox News.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 01:53 pm
LOL!!!!!!!!!

NOW I truly know what worth to value it at!!!

Please - a url - and I shall delight to see how "scientific" it was.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 02:01 pm
it is the "national study of youth and religion".
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 02:07 pm
http://www.youthandreligion.org/news/preliminary.html
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 02:28 pm
Frank,

You might say that these "religious" Christian youths are being good becauses they are scared to death of their God... but the surveys do not indicate this. They indicate that it is the non religious children that are more prone to fits and fears. The Christian youths seem happier with themselves and so this again just goes to show that your assumption that Christians are terrified of their God is "generally" wrong and baseless.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 02:32 pm
Luke 3:9

And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Mar, 2005 02:39 pm
Lol - cheerful chappy, aren't you?

Rex - it will immediately become clear to you, if you look at the url you provided, that the claims you assert were made by Fox are not claims made by the study itself. (I would be interested to be pointed to whatever Fox said, though!)

I am only beginning to research the study - but already a few alarm bells are going off.

The study (which may be a perfectly methodologically sound one) is funded by the Lilly Endowment Inc.

Here is their mission, in part:

http://www.lillyendowment.org/religion.html




"In recent years Lilly Endowment's religion grantmaking has been focused on major, interlocking efforts aimed at enhancing and sustaining the quality of ministry in American congregations and parishes. The Endowment has focused on supporting programs and projects that address four broad questions: How do we identify, recruit and call forth a new generation of talented Christian pastors? How do we best prepare and train new ministers for effective and faithful pastoral leadership? How do we improve the skills and sustain the excellence of pastors currently serving congregations? What are basic questions about the current state of the practice of ministry that we need to answer to improve the quality of ministry?

Responding to these questions prompts a series of important additional questions that must also be explored and addressed in order to make progress in this arena. These include questions about these topics: the characteristics of vital and healthy congregations; the knowledge, skills and practices of faithful and effective pastors; the ways the Christian faith is transmitted to the next generation; how young people are encouraged to explore their faith and consider ministry as their life's work; the shape of theological education; how to get new pastors off to a good start; the experiences necessary to renew and sustain enthusiasm and excellence in the ministries of established pastors; and the role religion has played and continues to play in the lives of individuals as well as in American society.

The Endowment's efforts are based on several convictions about what is essential for supporting and sustaining strong and vital congregations. The first is that the quality of pastoral leadership is critical to the health of congregations. When well-prepared, thoughtful, imaginative, able and caring pastors lead congregations, these communities of faith tend to thrive.

Theological education is absolutely pivotal, and seminaries play a critical role in preparing pastors for their leadership in congregations. Theological schools engage students in an exploration of the wisdom of the Christian tradition and train pastors how to bring biblical and theological insights to bear on contemporary issues.

There also is an ecology of institutions, including congregations, regional and national judicatories, colleges and universities, seminaries, independent agencies, retreat and conference centers, publishers and other supporting organizations, that must work collaboratively in addressing challenges and in maintaining strong and vibrant religious traditions and communities.

Major research projects support these efforts and provide a solid portrait of 21st century American society and church life. This base of information enables pastors and religious leaders to make informed decisions about their ministries and the broader public to understand more deeply the role of religion in American life.

In summary, the Endowment supports efforts:

* to deepen and enrich the religious lives of American Christians, primarily by helping strengthen their churches;
* to support the recruitment and education of a new generation of talented ministers and other religious leaders;
* to encourage theological reflection and religious practices that recover the wisdom of the Christian tradition for our contemporary situation;
* to support scholars and educators who seek to help the American people better understand contemporary religion and the role it plays in our public and personal lives; and
* to strengthen the contributions that religious ideas, practices, values and institutions make to the common good of our society.

In order to get an overview of some of the many projects that are supported through the Religion Division's grantmaking, click on Resources for American Christianity (www.resourcingchristianity.org). Information about a number of major Endowment-funded projects and organizations may be found by going directly to the following links....."


Not, perhaps, the least ideologically partisan of funding bodies??? Hmmm?? heard of observer effect?

I do not have time to research this further - I have to go to work - but I shall have a look at their stuff later.
0 Replies
 
 

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