China and Taiwan

Konstansis wrote:

This is such faulty logic that i'm not even gonna go into it,

I don't think you could go into it even if you wanted to.

Konstansis wrote:

They didnt even think this up themselves

Of course not - who can "think up" Chinese history over thousands of years? It just happens and the chinese people then accept it as fact, not government propaganda which it isn't.

Konstansis wrote:

The chinese have been so used to losing for the last 100 years that they dont question anything anymore.

Losing? I remember it was the Communist Party who WON in 1949 the civil war, defeating the Nationalists who had to seek Taiwan as refuge.

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if you are simply going to try to insult someone because you basically cant say anything worthwhile, then iu will have to explain msyelf further. The reaons that are based on faulty logic are for example, the unquestioned believe that because a country USED to own a part of land they have total authority over what happens to that land and its inhabitants. Who assigned more value to prior ownership than human rights? Also, why the hell is owning taiwan from 17th century onwards the final answer to this question? What about the thousands of years before this? Oh they dont matter because then china has no clain to the island? Its illogical to refer to past ownership of something that began part way through this islands existence while ignoring any ownership or lack of prior to yours.
And the past 100 years have been full of losses for china and is refferd to as the century of shame by some scholars, chinese scholars themselves too. The opium wars, abysmal performance in WW2, tiannamen square, subserveince and loss of land to foreign powers etc.

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PS check http://countrystudies.us/china/124.htm for info on China's past losses.
To be frank, i am pissed off that china sees fit to go about their business in an imperialistic way and have NO justification for it whatsoever. You know in Tibet the chinese government even decided they had the power to take over the devine rights of the Tibetans to choose their dalai lama? Apparently the CCP is a better judge of reincarnation of one;s soul than the tibetans who have been carrying out this tradition for thousands of years. Before the 13th century tibet wa salso the most militarily advanced nation in asia, but by 13th century tihs started to decline....right when china claims to also have owned them too. See any problems here similair to taiwan? Basically, they pick and choose ifo to suit their own stupid goals. While chinese peopel swallow it up. And as the nationalists lost to the communists, is it not true to say that china belonged to the nationalists BEFORE this so in actuality, Chin abelongs to taiwan? Thats the logic the CCP uses so why not?

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Konstansis wrote:

if you are simply going to try to insult someone because you basically cant say anything worthwhile,

I think you are the one who started insulting the chinese people in general first. It's just tit for tat.

Konstansis wrote:

The reaons that are based on faulty logic are for example, the unquestioned believe that because a country USED to own a part of land they have total authority over what happens to that land and its inhabitants.

Used to own? Doesn't the fact that Taiwan's President Chen is arguing for independence per se acknowledge that Taiwan is still part of China?

Konstansis wrote:

And the past 100 years have been full of losses for china and is refferd to as the century of shame by some scholars, chinese scholars themselves too. The opium wars, abysmal performance in WW2, tiannamen square, subserveince and loss of land to foreign powers etc.

The opium wars were indeed a century of shame - shame caused by a western country, ie: the UK. China was a weak country already back then, and being exploited by a powerful colonial country I don't think can be called a "loss" just exploitation that's all.

Abysmal performance? I think it is Japan that performed all the atrocities in China - which the chinese refer to as the forgotten holocoust. Shameful activity indeed - caused by the Japanese.

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Yo, you said you desparately wanted me to post something pragmatic? Man why can't we newbies private message? That's sucky.. makes me feel so discriminated against. I'm still reading through the thread before I try to make an intelligent post. I'll reply in a while with something better.

Also, I've noticed you've been quadruple-posting quite a bit :p Apparently no one cares on this forum, so that's a good thing.

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Yo, you said you desparately wanted me to post something pragmatic? Man why can't we newbies private message? That's sucky.. makes me feel so discriminated against. I'm still reading through the thread before I try to make an intelligent post. I'll reply in a while with something better.

Also, I've noticed you've been quadruple-posting quite a bit :p Apparently no one cares on this forum, so that's a good thing.

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Yeah its cool - I don't think anyone makes a big deal out of quadruple posting. Have a look around the other Asian threads!

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I will in time - you still at uni?

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Ok, I'll just post my opinions over what I've read so far....

I think Taiwan can be thought of as a nation on its own grab any Joe Blogs on the street who's not too keen on political correctness and he'll tell you so. Really, the difference between Taiwan and Tasmania is that Taiwan rely on a substantial amount of Commonwealth laws from the mainland Australia. Anyways, I do agree that the Chinese government probably "owns" the Taiwanese people (yep, I know that's a bad term to use.... I need a better word). Decades after the KMT left the mainland, they seemed to have formed their own government. A country can't have two governments unless they co-exist as some sort of federation (unless you want to tell me otherwise) and that doesn't seem to be happening here. So technically China and Taiwan would existing separately as separate countries, except that isn't universally recognised, it seems.

Political/legal correctness is all too tedious to think on, since you can't really reach a proper conclusion, so I'll stop wondering on whether or not Taiwan really is a part of China right now. I'll just say that I think that the Taiwanese people are "owned" by China (I'm sorry that I can't put it any better than that Sad

) due to the relatively short time since the KMT departed from the mainland. Yes, Taiwan is multicultural, but it seems so many are chinese at the moment, so that's all I'll say about that. I think, perhaps after another century or so, then it'll be more natural to ASSUME that Taiwan is a separate country from China as it isn't quite as natural right now.

I can agree that China's government is not as liberal as one would like their government to be at times like this. I'm more on human rights than political/legal correctness, Pragmatic, you know, but that's not the point right now since I think the Chinese government is behaving. Personally, I don't know how much I can trust the Chinese government given its past, although it has certainly reformed alot.... there's still the same political party though. But hopefully, with them becoming more integrated in modern International affairs, they'll walk more in the right direction with regards to human rights agenda and so on.

After that, I don't really care if Taiwan wants to separate itself from China or not. I agree with Gunsnake's rather "idealistic" post - the best way for Taiwan to seek independence as fast as possible is to move their entire population from the island very fast, very far - like maybe to around where Ireland is Smile

But as you had mentioned before Pragmatic, I would also like to know what this long, century-old war from 1668 (?) between China and Taiwan is about. Unless China has a great deal of economic gain and/or various opportunities to be made from keeping a claim on Taiwan, keeping Taiwan around won't change much. But as I said before, let's wait another century before seeing how much has changed between Taiwanese and Chinese relationship :p

Konstansis wrote:

i haven't read these posts but screw it, i just want to complaibn about how EVERY single chiense person i meet is so moronic that they have cmpletely swallowed their governments BS and believe in china 100%. I'm sick of EVERy chinese i meet having the exact same opinion. They should take taiwan. i ask them why and everyone of them without fail says 'cos it belongs to china'. This is such faulty logic that i'm not even gonna go into it,. cos what pisses me off is not JUST the fact that they all want to own taiwan, but their reasons for doing so arent even thought out. They didnt even think this up themselves, they were told it and took it in unquestioningly. The chinese have been so used to losing for the last 100 years that they dont question anything anymore. China is dead intellectually. It would be nice to meet a chinese person capable of individual though and formulating an opinion.

It's great to raise opinions and disagree with people. I don't appreciate you generalising/degrading people though, and reading out history like you know it. Just because China had problems back then doesn't mean it isn't standing on its feet now. Don't make yourself seem like a bigoted/biased flamer just because you've had a pov day - not a great way to start out on a forum.

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Hehe... maybe I should've chopped up my post and quadruple-posted them :p - When do I get to use the private messaging function and upload a decent AV?

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Quote:

Used to own? Doesn't the fact that Taiwan's President Chen is arguing for independence per se acknowledge that Taiwan is still part of China?

Oh, we've been around this topic. You're failure to acknowledge there is another position, other than the Communist party line is why posters like Konstansis can say

Quote:

EVERY single chiense person i meet is so moronic that they have cmpletely swallowed their governments BS and believe in china 100%. I'm sick of EVERy chinese i meet having the exact same opinion.

There was a while back in this thread where even any slightly negative aspect was argued, even if it was something that was standard Communist party policy and publicly known. For a while it felt like the religious forum, where posters don't need logic to argue only repeat the same mantra.

In argument to your point. And most of these I have mentioned before.

Taiwan is a defacto independent state (The communist government have not ruled Taiwan for a second)

President Chen would like Taiwan to be independently recognised, something that China blocks and has veto power in th UN over.

President Chen would like Taiwan to be independent from the strong arm tacktics that China is using.

President Chen would like Taiwan to be independent from 800 missiles pointed at it and from the military threat posed by China.

I understand as you say China feel they have a claim to Taiwan. I do not think it is valid or as substansial as the arguments I have put forward in favour of Taiwan's own claim. I do not agree China have any right whatsoever to threaten the 23 Million people of this island and should learn a more civilized way of resolving issues.
By the by , I never got a response on the topic raised by General Zhu Chenghu who thinks nukes are really cool and we should all go off and obliterate the planet.

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It's interesting with what you say when you said that China doesn't have a claim on Taiwan as the sovereignty of the Communist party was never recognised in Taiwan. Moving over to Taiwan would have meant that the KMT had detached itself once and for all from the Communist government and rightly formed a government on its own in the past century.

My parents think like Pragmatic though I can say I think differently for the reasons I've posted previously.

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Hi Keos,
Everyone seems to have thier own views an opinions on this. President Chen has just come up with his interpretation of Taiwans histroy.

Quote:

Chen said that the ROC was established in China in 1912. Between 1912 and 1949, the ROC was on the mainland of China. After 1949, the ROC "moved" to Taiwan. In the third stage, during the time when Lee Teng-hui was president (1988-2000) , "the ROC on Taiwan" was the catch-phrase used to describe the nation.
In the fourth stage after 2000, with the first peaceful transfer of power in the ROC's history, the new phrase should be "the ROC is Taiwan," according to Chen.

Source Chens comment

Not even in Taiwan alone does everyone think this is accurate, but it's President Chens views. It's interesting Pragmatic brought up this as an open topic and then vehemently expounded the party line, making me wonder if the post was more of a challenge or a way to reafirm the party ideals.

Here's an interesting quote by Rumsfeld

Quote:

Rumsfeld has raised concerns about China's military buildup, he has continued to state publicly that he believes the Taiwan dispute will be settled through peaceful negotiation.

"Our position with respect to Taiwan and the People's Republic of China hasn't changed in years," he said at a news briefing last month. "Our view is that whatever changes are to be made in that connection should be made on a peaceful basis by both countries."

Note he calls them both countries. Of course offically this is not the case, but in most peoples minds they are two countries.

And with regard China seeking purely peaceful means to reslove the conflict , one has only to read the next paragraph,

Quote:

"The Pentagon report shows that there is every reason to believe that China intends either to coerce Taiwan or to attack it. There is no third option."

Source Concern about Chinas Subs

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edit* multiple post

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one suggestion for all of the people who want Taiwai to be independent:

1,you'd better to go over the chinese history. don't only read the speach of "President Chen".
2,you'd better to communicate with the Chinese people---you will see to prevent Taiwai from independence is the will of all of the Chines people, not of the communist party. If the communist party claim that Taiwan could be independent, they will face the most serious problme in the history. All of the Chinese people will get angry!
3,the young Taiwanese has no feeling about the mainland, because of the politics.

I don't live in mainland now. But since I leave the mainland, I realised how deeply I love my motherland, and I also understand how difficult the communist party lead the Chinese people (such a big country, such a big population) to live better and better life. They are great! I love China, Long live China!

VIVE LA CHINE!!!!

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Quite,

You bring up a good point which I agree with, that the Chinese government couldn't make this dicision without the people of China rising up against them. Like any Government they have their own internal issues.

I also commend your pride in the Country you were born, I think all people should be proud of their roots.

Telling me to go away and read up on Chinese history is a bit rude as you have no idea what I do and do not know. But whatever, lets put it down to an enthusiastic post.

I've posted many questions on this thread , almost none of which are addressed and nor do I expect them to be from people who are only interested in trying to push thier ideas down other peoples throats. Compare it to a debate with a missionary trying to convert you to thier religion, no interest in the points you make , and only a single goal.

OK. Here's a different question for you. Knowing the terms and conditions that China has imposed on the Taiwan people. YOU looking from a Chinese persons perspective, would YOU be able to accept the terms if you were in the place of the Taiwanese. Or which is more likely , pride would simply not allow it?

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China does not want a war. All parties want to sit down and negotiate. But China wants to negotiate as one China - a united front with united aims. We do not want disjointed, broken up enemy lines in negotiation. Is that wrong?

President Chen refuses. He wants to negotiate as two countries, two governments. On what basis has he got the right to do that? But while he refuses to this one pre-condition to negotiation, negotiation will not occur.

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Michael_S wrote:

Taiwan is a defacto independent state (The communist government have not ruled Taiwan for a second)

Immaterial. France has not ruled over Monaco but the latter is still French territory. HK has its own SAR government but it is China's territory.

Michael_S wrote:

President Chen would like Taiwan to be independently recognised, something that China blocks and has veto power in th UN over.

Your point is?

Michael_S wrote:

President Chen would like Taiwan to be independent from the strong arm tacktics that China is using.

The very tactics that he forced China into using.

Michael_S wrote:

President Chen would like Taiwan to be independent from 800 missiles pointed at it and from the military threat posed by China.

As above.

Michael_S wrote:

By the by , I never got a response on the topic raised by General Zhu Chenghu who thinks nukes are really cool and we should all go off and obliterate the planet.

Bit of an exageration there, wouldn't you say?

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Excellent. I'm pleased you are giving thought to the issues, after all, one must be comfortable with their views. Only by pursuing and questioning what is told to us and questioning the views of others can we arrive at what we deem the truth. Your further pursuit of this topic assures me, you are someone who's more interesting in finding such a position, rather than just enforcing your own ideology, which at one point I had thought most likely.

You bring up a number of points, which I will get round to in time, but to help focus the discussion a little bit will address the first two today.

pragmatic wrote:

Michael_S wrote:
Taiwan is a defacto independent state (The communist government have not ruled Taiwan for a second)

Immaterial. France has not ruled over Monaco but the latter is still French territory. HK has its own SAR government but it is China's territory.

Well, I can understand the need to equate or find some parallel to the China and Taiwan situation, certainly if one can do that, it would be a long way to justifying the stance taken by China. Unfortunately, these examples could be almost be used as a metaphor for grasping at straws. Why?

Well lets look at the first example. France and Monaco. Monaco being an independent sovereign state and represented in the UN, WHO and so on , Taiwan claiming to be an independent sovereign state, although this would be hotly contended by China and not represented in the UN, WHO and so on. Monaco, population 22,000 and Taiwan over 1000 times that and in size, Taiwan ranking in the top ten countries worldwide for GDP. Monaco able to decide the basis on which relationships carry on and of course Taiwan told they must accept China conditions or go to war. Please I encourage you to pursue this line of thinking, at least until you yourself become satisfied that there is a distinction, or you disagree with my reasoning, but not because you get frustrated or cant argue against the facts. Dispute the facts, its all ok , I will be the first to admit I am wrong if you can convince me of it.

HK. Well it is the second part of your argument. This post is getting lengthy already so (we can come back if you like) as recommended reading material, I would suggest the terms and conditions of the handover to China of Hong Kong by the British (many who would say that these terms have already been breached by the Chinese on numerous occasions, a position I agree with)

pragmatic wrote:

Michael_S wrote:
President Chen would like Taiwan to be independently recognised, something that China blocks and has veto power in th UN over.

Your point is?

My point, is I concede a little difficult to see. What we are talking about here are the rights of the Taiwanese for representation. Now, not all countries (mention no names) have human rights at the top of their agenda, so when such topics are discussed it would be natural for them to no get the point. The outbreak of SARS is a particular example when because the Taiwanese have no representation in WHO, there was great difficulty in co-coordinating a response and many lives were put at risk.

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bookmark - Michael I will get back to you after mid-November.

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