Michael_S wrote:What do you think America's position is (a) politically and (b) in reality , and are these 2 things the same?
Defend Tawian from what is the real issue - from the reuniting with China? Or from a possible conflict and war with China? Because they could be very different things.
<Re the name thing - that's ok. I had no idea there were two people with similar names - i meant the well respected driver. :wink: >
Hmm, in case we misunderstand each other let me use a more complete quote.
Quote:Asked in the ABC interview if Washington had an obligation to defend the Taiwanese in the event of attack by China, which considers the island a renegade province, Bush said: "Yes, we do ... and the Chinese must understand that. Yes, I would."
When asked whether the United States would use "the full force of the American military," Bush responded, "Whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself."
like to try again?
Michael_S wrote:Hmm, in case we misunderstand each other let me use a more complete quote.
You're right - I still don't understand what you are talking about.
Quote:Asked in the ABC interview if Washington had an obligation to defend the Taiwanese in the event of attack by China, which considers the island a renegade province, Bush said: "Yes, we do ... and the Chinese must understand that. Yes, I would."When asked whether the United States would use "the full force of the American military," Bush responded, "Whatever it took to help Taiwan defend herself."
well, defend Taiwan from
what? From china
forcefully taking Taiwan back? Or diplomatically? The USA themselves have acknowledged that Taiwan is part of China - they just said they won't stand for China declaring war against Taiwan that's all.
You know, I have always wondered what part the USA plays in this. It was the KMT who left China in 1945 after being defeated - it is now the KMT who want to get back together again. I don't see the USA having participated at all...except maybe want to get rid of Communism back in the Cold war period.
Michael_S wrote:If you can only say 400 years ago, Taiwan was a part of China, the whole world needs to go to war. In that time America and Australia were part of the British Empire, N.Korea S.Korea, Kuwait and Iran and on and on.
Actually - disagree with that. the circumstances and histories of each of the countries are very different from taiwan and china, not to mention the cultural attitudes:
America and australia
were part of the British empire? america yes it is independent but australia
is still part of the british empire techinically. I point out also that America had to fight for its indpendence and if China and Taiwan do go to war over this issue and Taiwan wins, then they may have won their "war of independence." But while they can't, unless they have USA's help, I see no way they can claim indpendence. the very fact that they claim independence is already acknolwedgment they are not a nation of their own.
Seriously, I hate polititians. Do you think it matters to the cab driver who is in government, or the roadside vendor selling breakfast? They have the same customers each day , not much would change with a different overnment, and yet the irony is these are the people who care most.
The governments themselves, I think you would agree , communist officals can be highly corrupt, as well as governments that are supposed to set an example. Bush is just beyond words.
I love the people. I think each person can make their own choice, I repesct that, and my relationship with people is strong because they understand I don't force my ideas on them.
Taiwan, generally speaking wants independence. If China backs off, they will be recognized instantly. What does China gain from an offensive. It's like a jilted lover, everyone backs off because they understand it to be "internal" , but othes deeply despise the abusive husband.
Who cares what the governments want, they could all die of some sexually transmitted disease for all I car. How about the people? Our cabbie in Taiwan or our street vendor will be seriously fuc*ed if the governments get thier way. How do you justify spouting lawyer mumbo jumbo while real people will stand to suffer consequences in the real world.
What is China's real motive for wanting Taiwan. You think it has anything to do with the people that live here?
Michael_S wrote:You think it has anything to do with the people that live here?
Nope. More just getting back what is their own.
TaiWai is another China ?
NO!
No war !
TaiWai belongs to the motherland ,it is called as a special province just like HongKong.
I love my home！
China is great !Don't you think so ?
Yours Davis
hi englishdavis:
welcome to a2k - and yes, I agree with your position 100%. No one wants war but practical realty is it is a possibility. I myself wish that Taiwan and China could reunite as the one country they are supposed to be but there are complications - bush of america and chen of taiwan.
Hi englishdavis,
I too agree , no war. So why is China threatening to start one? If it was like your property and it was being occupied by someone who you felt had no right to ownership, you don't threaten to blow up the property with every one in it. Thats simply not civilized, China needs to prove thier right to ownership in the international community , and then there would be a multitude of options available to them.
Michael_S wrote:I too agree , no war. So why is China threatening to start one?
I can't say I have seen any express threats to physical war.
Michael_S wrote:...China needs to prove thier right to ownership in the international community , and then there would be a multitude of options available to them.
But the history shows that the main issue arose not as a question of whether taiwan was independent or not - they never were, but more who was the legtitimate gov of China. Out of this question arose - if we have two govs, one in mainland China and one in the island of Taiwan which belongs to China, and both claim to be THE government of China, rather than A government of china, then shouldn't the island become independent so that both governments would become the rightful governments, but of two countries rather than one?
Quote:I can't say I have seen any express threats to physical war.
Really? There are simply too many examples I could offer to counter this statement that it boggles the mind. I will offer one current article from Janes.
Quote:Jane's Sentinel has reported: "[China] is modernising its military, and possible operations against Taiwan figure strongly in its planning.
.............."The island is in the range of hundreds of short- to medium-range ballistic missiles and bomber aircraft based in the mainland...........an academic warned that China's hostility towards Taiwan has damaged chances of lifting the EU arms embargo that has been in place since the Tiananmen Square massacre of 1989........Paul Harris, an expert on Chinese politics at Lingnan University in Hong Kong, told a news agency: "Americans were pushing the EU to maintain the embargo, but the Chinese pulled the EU in the wrong direction through their anti-secession legislation on Taiwan."
I don't suppose you are aware of the content of the anti-secession law or what it's purpose is for?
Michael_S wrote:Really? There are simply too many examples I could offer to counter this statement that it boggles the mind. I will offer one current article from Janes.
Even if the anti secession law is interpreted as an express threat to war - I don't see why China doesn't have the right to pass such a law. It all goes back to the basic question - has Taiwan proved their right to be independent, not has China proved their right to Taiwan. If Taiwan hasn't proven such right, and they still insist on independence, then war is definetly one method of obtaining the independence - the two governments cannot agree.
Interesting that on a forum focused on knowledge that we have the opinion that going to war is the best or a good way to deal with issues. Terms like military intellegence deifine the meaning of an oxymoron.
Michael_S wrote:Interesting that on a forum focused on knowledge that we have the opinion that going to war is the best or a good way to deal with issues.
Who wants war? I don't. I disagreed with the Vietnam War back in the 60s and I disagree with the war on terror now. But in this context, if the two governments continue to disagree over this issue, war will eventually become the only way, as opposed to the best or a good way.
Communists will not claim a war to Taiwan unless Taiwanese are stupid enough to declare officially independent.
In fact, Chinese might just throw couple atomic bombs on Taiwan in the "liberation war", because PRC is having a strong mind to take over Taiwan.
onben wrote:Communists will not claim a war to Taiwan unless Taiwanese are stupid enough to declare officially independent.
that's just it - they are not that stupid at all. President Chen will not declare official indpendence not just yet, but lets be realistic - isn't that what he is doing - fulfilling the intention of independence?
General Zhu Chenghu of China's National Defense University recently said
Quote:If the Americans draw their missiles and position-guided ammunition on to the target zone on China's territory, I think we will have to respond with nuclear weapons
Source
China refuses to back down over comments
Mabee Pragmatic might agree with him, hmmm yes lets all start a nuclear war, sounds reasonable , I think China is within thier rights to take this position......
hooray! Nuclear wars!
That's why NASA is working so hard on the projects of Mars, cuz earth might be destroyed after the atomic Armageddon.
Welcome to the planet of Mars. LOL. just kidding.
i haven't read these posts but screw it, i just want to complaibn about how EVERY single chiense person i meet is so moronic that they have cmpletely swallowed their governments BS and believe in china 100%. I'm sick of EVERy chinese i meet having the exact same opinion. They should take taiwan. i ask them why and everyone of them without fail says 'cos it belongs to china'. This is such faulty logic that i'm not even gonna go into it,. cos what pisses me off is not JUST the fact that they all want to own taiwan, but their reasons for doing so arent even thought out. They didnt even think this up themselves, they were told it and took it in unquestioningly. The chinese have been so used to losing for the last 100 years that they dont question anything anymore. China is dead intellectually. It would be nice to meet a chinese person capable of individual though and formulating an opinion.
Konstansis wrote:i haven't read these posts
And maybe you should before you give your opinion.
