China and Taiwan

pragmatic wrote:

Now I have to bring up the very sensitive issue of the relations (or lack of it) btwn China and Taiwan...who thinks what and why? I want to get a general perspective from everyone on A2K.

The Chinese Communist overran the Government of the Republic of China in 1949 and declared the People's Republic of China. The Government of the ROC fled to Taiwan where it remains today. Both the PRC and the ROC claim sovereignty over all Chinese territories on the mainland and Taiwan.

The PRC considers Taiwan as a breakaway province. The PRC has never actually controlled the island of Taiwan and some other islands that the ROC still controls. In fact, you could argue that the PRC consists of the provinces that broke away from the ROC.

The ROC is a de facto sovereign country. The ROC has full control over a specific territory and population. It also has its own armed forces, currency, postal system, etc.--everything that a normal sovereign country has.

Most countries in the world recognize the PRC as the legitamate government of China. Most of the countries that recognize the ROC are very much anti-communist.

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Sorry, pragmatic, I cannot agree with you when you split these two bodies into "China" and "Taiwan".

Can you name a language called "Taiwanese"? How is the culture of Taiwan? Do you think that Taiwanese civilization is a copy of China?
Taiwan still have a long long way to a "nation".

You can say that there are two governemts both labeled "China".
But You can never say that Taiwan isn't part of China.

And apparently here you mean the relations between the two governments.

My opinion
JB

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Pepito is right on in the history, except

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Both the PRC and the ROC claim sovereignty over all Chinese territories on the mainland and Taiwan.

I don't think the Taiwanese have had any serious claims to China for a long time (especially under the current ruling party). It has been claimed that Taiwan's claim to China are the reason that they are in the pretty pickle they are in now. That's another story for later in the thread perhaps.

JB I'm not sure you already have your mind made up entering this discussion. But

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Can you name a language called "Taiwanese"?

I see where you are coming from. But I think you miss the point. Taiwan has many different ethnic groups. From the aboriginal tribes, to those who migrated centuries ago and speak a dialect derivative from the mainland, to those who came more recently and those who came with the KMT. The last couple of years has seen major divisions based on ethnicticity.

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How is the culture of Taiwan?

The culture of Taiwan, includes Japanese who occupied the country up until relatively quite recently. Elderly will still speak in Japanese, occasionally there are traces of Dutch who occupied before the Japanese. Are you suggesting that the culture is the same as the Mainland? Sure a large proportion of the population came with the KMT . An even larger portion didn't. And even the portion that did, that was over 50 years ago.

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Do you think that Taiwanese civilization is a copy of China?

You're kidding right?

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Taiwan still have a long long way to a "nation".

This I agree, but perhaps for different reasons and perhaps with different feelings about it. Although it can be argues they are already a nation.

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You can say that there are two governemts both labeled "China".
But You can never say that Taiwan isn't part of China.

This would be the party line in China. But what is different to N.Korea and S.Korea? Will China still claim sovereignty over Mongolia?

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The PRC has never actually controlled the island of Taiwan and some other islands that the ROC still controls

This is fact. NOt for one minute or second has the PRC governed Taiwan. The Dutch have, the Japanese have and the Taiwanese have. Taiwan is disputing China's claim to Taiwan. Those are the words China does not want to hear, and is why they constantly assert themselves with ferocity. But is there grounds for a claim? please no nonsense reply.

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Hey calm down, Michael. I didn't provide you the dynamite and so not necessary to sparkle Smile

I am not sure if I had my mind made up but I am SURE my mind is better than the most people here in mainland. More rational I... :wink:

I am sorry my time is limited that I have to respond a little to you.

You said that Taiwan had ethnic groups and natives whose cultures and languages are different from China. True, I didn't deny it.

That is nothing, nearly every country has ethnic cultures, China has 55 ethnic groups, Russia has over 130, USA has negroes, Aisan, Hispanic....

Dialet, Very Happy

You've misunderstood it. Do you know how many dialets are there in China? Cantonese is much more different from Mandarin. I love the dialet of Sichun, and the spicy food there. And maybe you've missed that the official language is Mandarin too in Taiwan. That is why most people in Mainland can understand much more easily what Taiwanese say than what a Hongkonger say. Cantonese is nearly a foreign language :wink:

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^JB^ wrote:

You said that Taiwan had ethnic groups and natives whose cultures and languages are different from China. True, I didn't deny it.

That is nothing, nearly every country has ethnic cultures, China has 55 ethnic groups, Russia has over 130, USA has negroes, Aisan, Hispanic....

And maybe you've missed that the official language is Mandarin too in Taiwan. Cantonese is nearly a foreign language

This is so right - China and every single country in the world is so diverse in its own way...look at Australia - so different it has been officially dubbed multicultural. But everyone claims to be still Australian. I am willing to bet, if a territory can claim to be indpendent founded on culture and language alone - there would be over 1 million little nations all over the world.

There is also the issue that Taiwan is already a nation - or as MS said, it can be argued they already are a nation. There has to be some basis for this claim and it seems to me that in today's contemporary community - it would be do other governments recognise you as a official country? If you base it on the existence of a government alone (opposition and all included) - well, Australia has its federal government and then it has its state governments (with opposition and ruling party all included). But there is no way that anyone could claim Queensland, Tasmania etc - to be their own "nation" - its all composed into one Australia.

Another thing I have noticed many of my peers to have said is that Taiwan is physically seperate from China - which is a really weak argument in itself. Well, one will notice that Tasmania is physically seperate from australia - but one cannot say that Tasmania is therefore (along with its own government, policies and own Tasmanian culture etc etc) is indpendent.

In regards to N and S Korea - I think the issue of them agreeing to be seperate should be taken into account. There is mutual consent that they not interfere with each other's affairs - you notice there is nothing about the two countries soveriegnty.

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JB - I had to smile at the "Hongkonger" bit - I dont' think there is such a ... "person." :wink:

Which is something I want to ask you about, actually. Ever since HK got handed back over to China (someone said annexed, I am still fuming over that) - do you think that HK ppl have the right to call themselves a HK person? I mean, ppl from Australia say they are Australian, even if they are from different states out of the 8 states and territories in Australia. It almost seems that calling themvels as HK ppl, despite the fact that they are now China's again after 8 years seems so inappropriate.

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^JB^ wrote:

Sorry, pragmatic, I cannot agree with you when you split these two bodies into "China" and "Taiwan".

Hey JB - I don't agree that they should be called two names either (and I agree that Taiwan is part of China) - if its the PRC, its PRC. You would never see me say "HK and China" as meaning HK is not china's - HK is part of China and I would always refer to both as China. Its just that for the purposes of this post, I had to seperate them so ppl would know what I was talking about.

Hope you didn't misunderstand me. Confused

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Pepito wrote:

The ROC is a de facto sovereign country. The ROC has full control over a specific territory and population. It also has its own armed forces, currency, postal system, etc.--everything that a normal sovereign country has.

Pepito - regarding the quote above, please refer to my post and the part when I talked about the Australian government.

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I just finished reading a speech from Madame Fu Ying, Chinese ambassador to Australia - and one of the press had asked her about the issue of China and Taiwan - why can't they be indpendent. She answered that Taiwan is a very important part of Chinese history and in fact a war had been fought over Taiwan back in 1661.

Can anyone elaborate on this war?

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An interesting couple of analogies there. I especially like the one about Australia.

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There is also the issue that Taiwan is already a nation - or as MS said, it can be argued they already are a nation. There has to be some basis for this claim and it seems to me that in today's contemporary community - it would be do other governments recognise you as a official country?

Well the official recognition IS a definition of a government, and yes Taiwan does not have this. Although it goes against common sense and frequently surprizes people such a definition exists. I would therefore suggest to Pragmatic that other definitions of government also be taken into consideration. For example a quick check on a couple of on line dictionaries gives the following definition.

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The act or process of governing, especially the control and administration of public policy in a political unit.
The office, function, or authority of a governing individual or body.
Exercise of authority in a political unit; rule.
The agency or apparatus through which a governing individual or body functions and exercises authority.
A governing body or organization, as:
The ruling political party or coalition of political parties in a parliamentary system.
The cabinet in a parliamentary system.
The persons who make up a governing body.
A system or policy by which a political unit is governed.
Administration or management of an organization, business, or institution.

government definition

Taiwan satisfies ALL of the above. Tasmania on the other hand does not. Tasmania does not collect its own taxes, make its own laws, have its own military and so on. The only common thread to Taiwan is that they are both islands. I hope you can give a more pursasive argument than this lame duck.

One interesting point to note, is that the whole world may agree the world is flat. This does not make it so. Why doesn't someone try to convince me that China has a legitamate claim to Taiwan. After all they are talking about invading the island.

If you can only say 400 years ago, Taiwan was a part of China, the whole world needs to go to war. In that time America and Australia were part of the British Empire, N.Korea S.Korea, Kuwait and Iran and on and on.

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Michael, I think that has been some misunderstanding:

I don't see my post saying anywhere that 400 years of events can lead to China claiming Taiwan - I was merely asking can someone elaborate on this detail? I certainly didn't ask assumptions to be drawn from it. I can certainly see that 400 years ago of history alone will not support any claim - if so, then we could look back at the history of British *colonisation* of Australia on the basis that it was terra nullius when the aboriginals were on it already.

PS - I suggest that when you read others posts, please remember the a2K guidlines in answering other people's posts. "Lame Duck" isn't exactly what I regard as constructive criticism.

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Michael_S wrote:

Tasmania on the other hand does not. Tasmania does not collect its own taxes, make its own laws, have its own military and so on.

Are you even from Australia? I would like to point out: Tasmania does make its own laws, have its own state taxes etc etc. And it may be the state that is an island (and therefore, similar to Taiwan) but all the other 6 or 7 states of Australia are not an island. I suggest that you should include the other states when you are pointing out the errors in my argument.

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My applogies if I hurt your feelings, no offence meant. But the analogy is a bad one.

I am a person who loves the people. Taiwan is my home and the subject regarding Taiwan and China has divided this nation. The threat of war is too horrible for many to even talk about. The pain and suffering here will be enornous.

I was against America invading Iraq. I am agaisnt N.Korea developing weopons of mass destruction. In the last 2000 years the leaders of the world have not secured peace, in my opinion they have done a terrible job. My whole life I have watched the suffering in Isreal and Palestine. Really it breaks my heart that as a civilisation, war is talked about so nanchalantly.

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That's ok. I would be the last person to say that I am the perfect debator. And apologies all accepted - no hard feelings.

If anything, I can see where you are coming from - I love China as well so really, I don't agree on your points, but I agree on your feelings.

From your post, you are from Taiwan - is that right? Are you originally Taiwanese? You're english is really good.

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I'm far from being the perfect debator myself, and thanks for being understanding, I'll try to cool it a bit Very Happy

I'm English originally, but have lived here for many years. Like all things there are two sides of the debate. I think regarding Taiwan and China there are all kinds of posibilities to explore. In my opinion both sides are taking uncompomising positions, which is a shame as those posibilites are not explored.

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You're ENLGISH? As in, from the UK?? Oh my gosh! Why did you move? I am not saying that Asia is bad or anything, but honestly - the views in Europe are fantastic! I see the photos of Europe and I just melt...of course, I can understand, if you face it everyday, it becomes a normal course of life. This is me - someone who has never left Australia after being here for almost 16 years.

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I like both England and Taiwan. I'm often asked to compare the two, and the best analogy is they are like apples and oranges. You might have preference for one rather than the other, but no one can really say one is better than the other.

I lived in Oz for a couple of years too, about 17 years ago. Western Australia, north of Perth. Very beautiful.

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Re: China and Taiwan

pragmatic wrote:

Now I have to bring up the very sensitive issue of the relations (or lack of it) btwn China and Taiwan...who thinks what and why? I want to get a general perspective from everyone on A2K.

There's a fairly simple and elegant solution to the entire problem of Taiwan.

Basically, the chicoms must be made to answer this question: "Are you claiming to own an island, or are you claiming to own 30 million people who moved to that island to avoid living under your fubar government, along with their technological and industrial infrastructure?"

I don't see how we can defend Taiwan in perpetuity given it's location, nonetheless it's not obvious we should have to. None of the nationalist Chinese have any more than about 60 years history of living on that island, and we own lots of islands. The basic idea would be to take everything we have which moves over water, pick a particularly dark night, and move the Nationalist Chinese along with as much of their machinery and infrastructure as can be moved all back 6000 miles away from the coast of China either to one of our own island possessions or to that northwest corner of Australia which is mainly populated by poisonous snakes and estuarian crockadiles and then tell the fricking chicoms if they want an island (Taiwan), hey! feel free, rejoice dear hearts, it's all yours.

The Taiwanese would be back in business as if nothing had happened in less than six months and the chicoms would be snaffed.

Peter Schultz, CEO of Porsche, once noted that the only asset a company like Porsche really had which was meaningful was its people. He noted that you could bomb the entire plant to ashes and dust and if the people survived, they'd be building cars again in less than two years. Take away the people on the other hand, and the plant would revert to forest in the same time. The Taiwanese people of course aren't into heavy manufacturing far as I know, and the tools for making microchips and circuit boards would have to be easier to move and transport on ships than machine tools and the wherewithal for building Porsches.

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SO, we've made a reconsolation with each other Smile

Michael, Great to meet you Smile

I am wondering what makes a "nation" these days.
No result yet.

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China and Taiwan

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