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AbOrTiOn, good or bad?

 
 
djbt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:09 am
I agree that no special status should be give to a 'potential' human life. I think Monty Python have settled that one for us. I do think special status should go to an actual life. I would maintain that this occurs at the moment when consciousness/experience/any-kind-of-feeling-at-all arises. I do not know when this is, or even how it happens.

Mills75 wrote:
Getting an abortion should be no more an issue than having an unwanted growth removed from one's backside. It is only the theological roots of our moral values that makes an abortion more significant. Let's face it, if we (Americans) weren't in the process of emerging from the under the thumb of Puritannical views of sex (ie, abstinence before marriage, sex is for procreation only, missionary position, etc.), would abortion be such a controversy?


I don't know about Americans, but it would for me. I have no concerns about people having casual sex, or any other Puritanical point-of-view I think. In fact I was brought up to believe abortion was unfortunate, but a woman's right to choose. As I tried to form my own system of ethics, I began to question this.
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:08 pm
djbt wrote:
I do think special status should go to an actual life. I would maintain that this occurs at the moment when consciousness/experience/any-kind-of-feeling-at-all arises. I do not know when this is, or even how it happens.


The parts of the brain responsible for what you mention aren't usually developed or active until fairly late into the second trimester (over half-way through the pregnancy). I'd agree that after this point the question becomes substantially more complicated, but until that point we're really talking about tissue--living tissue with the potential to become a human, but tissue nonetheless.
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djbt
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 02:49 pm
I was not aware that we knew what parts of the brain are responsible for the ability to experience. I didn't think we knew why experience should be necessary for the working of the brain. I thought, for all we currently know, my brain and body would act just as I do, without 'me' experiencing it. I shouldn't think I would even believe in the idea of experience if I didn't experience myself and know it were possible.

And if we don't know why we experience, or what experience is, how can we know when, or how, it arises?
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Odd Socks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 04:48 pm
Why only 2 options? I don't think that it's either.


This argument excluded ( since all the activists seems to have been defanged) , why do people argue continuously about things when they know they'll never be able to convince the other person? Both arguments for and against abortion are logical and founded on goodwill and morality.
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Odd Socks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 05:09 pm
Mills75 wrote:
I'd agree that after this point the question becomes substantially more complicated, but until that point we're really talking about tissue--living tissue with the potential to become a human, but tissue nonetheless.


I agree with this completely . It's likely that neonate's brain has less humanlike complexity and emotions than an adult pig's brain has , but (hopefully) most people who eat pork consider it morally reprehensible to kill a baby. It takes a few months n (at least) in the world before a baby begins to develop even basic adult emotion and cognition. If you killed a cute lil four month old , you'd ( hopefully) get caught and put in prison.

Animals feel and think ( to a greater extent than a neonate) . We eat them. Babies brains are less complex, we protect them.

That's all. I eat fish, and would readily kill anybody who hurt a baby. The point is that the exact point at which an embryo becomes a person is entirely arbitrary. You could argue anything from before conception (if you are only talking only about potential to become a human) to after birth ( if you defined it as fully developed adult cognition) or even perhaps even adults with severe intellectual disabilities (lack of adult cognition) or autism ( whose emotional life and awareness is very different than other people) and your answers could be firmly grounded in logic and desire to help others. All the above options seem amoral and problematic to us ( or , at least me) , but they all have been embraced as the only logical or moral method of dealing with the problem by different societies.

( Twisted Evil attempts to return discussion to cultural relativism Smile )

Val: religion and morality are entirely different things. I'm agnostic, and i talk about morality (refer to above post). Morality is about respect for other people and yourself, not about being afraid of some vengeful god-head.
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Odd Socks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 05:24 pm
Also ( to cover my arse) , i'd like to make the point that , as somebody whose most central life goal is to assist and improve the life quality and services of people with disabilities,the idea of harming them is extremely appalling to me. I don't think people with disabilities are less human or less worthy of life than people who developed normally. I don't even think that having a 'standard" sort of brain is especially desirable. People who are born as humans are humans. Regardless of how different they are, it's our duty to give them access to the same quality of life as anybody else.

In my view, humans are more important than animals, even chimps who have, for example, elaborate societies and iqs equivalent to 4 yr old children.

Just adding this so that the ad hominem arguments don't get too out of control.
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 06:46 pm
djbt wrote:
I was not aware that we knew what parts of the brain are responsible for the ability to experience. I didn't think we knew why experience should be necessary for the working of the brain. I thought, for all we currently know, my brain and body would act just as I do, without 'me' experiencing it. I shouldn't think I would even believe in the idea of experience if I didn't experience myself and know it were possible.

And if we don't know why we experience, or what experience is, how can we know when, or how, it arises?


I'm confused about your terminology. 'Experience' is physiological, not metaphysical. We experience the world through our senses which are part of our nervous system and operate on fairly well understood electro-chemical reactions. The sensory input goes to the brain where it is either ignored, transferred to short-term (or working) memory and, depending on that sensory input's perceived importance or its connection to previously encoded sensory input, either forgotten or encoded to long-term memory. Theoretically, if technology and neurological knowledge were advanced enough, I could surgically remove your brain and, by carefully creating and controlling nerve impulses to your brain, make it so that you would never know the difference (ie, make you think you still had your body, lived your life, etc.--a little like The Matrix except you would just be a disembodied brain).

Now if you're talking about the soul, why worry anyway--the soul's immortal (but this, however, makes the debate a theological one).
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 06:55 pm
Odd Socks wrote:
This argument excluded ( since all the activists seems to have been defanged) , why do people argue continuously about things when they know they'll never be able to convince the other person? Both arguments for and against abortion are logical and founded on goodwill and morality.


To hear ourselves talk. Doh! This is cyberspace (and no one can hear you scream in cyberspace--unless you have a microphone and the sound card on your pc isn't toast, as mine is), to see ourselves type.

Actually, it's to convince those who haven't made up their minds yet or sway those who are shaky in their convictions.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 08:55 pm
Odd Socks, if I may ask, where do you think your morality comes from?
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Odd Socks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 09:07 pm
In what way?

I think that morality results from a mixture of genetics and social conditioning, like most human characteristics. Having a moral code has the same benefits of, say, altruism and i think it evolved through a similar mechanism.
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Eorl
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 09:17 pm
Nice answer.

As a hardcore atheist I get that question a lot from theists, and I had a feeling you'd have a well considered answer to that one.

I've not really thought about it enough myself, I just know I like being a good guy.

Thanks!
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Odd Socks
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 11:39 pm
Thanks, but i don't think my answer was very thorough . The evolutionary benefits/origin of altruism are still reasonably controversial , and the most explanation given for such traits often has more to do with politics than science. For example, 50 years ago homosexuality was considered to be a disease . These days some biologists advocate the evolutionary benefits of homosexuality to family groups ( extra money and time spent on caring for the children, for example). Such explanations often have less to do with science than politics ( Smile although it's nice that homosexuals are becoming more accepted) .

Most people ( that is, except psychopaths ( 1% of population) and people with certain disorders ( also a very political concept, which may or may not include psychopathy) ) have a conscience, regardless of religion.

Religion can either develop or numb a person's conscience. Both Torquemada and Mother Teresa followed the same religion Smile .
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Child of the Light
 
  1  
Reply Wed 23 Mar, 2005 11:50 pm
Great thing, it keeps women attractive.
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djbt
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 03:51 am
Mills75 wrote:
I'm confused about your terminology. 'Experience' is physiological, not metaphysical. We experience the world through our senses which are part of our nervous system and operate on fairly well understood electro-chemical reactions. The sensory input goes to the brain where it is either ignored, transferred to short-term (or working) memory and, depending on that sensory input's perceived importance or its connection to previously encoded sensory input, either forgotten or encoded to long-term memory. Theoretically, if technology and neurological knowledge were advanced enough, I could surgically remove your brain and, by carefully creating and controlling nerve impulses to your brain, make it so that you would never know the difference (ie, make you think you still had your body, lived your life, etc.--a little like The Matrix except you would just be a disembodied brain).

Now if you're talking about the soul, why worry anyway--the soul's immortal (but this, however, makes the debate a theological one).


Always difficult to find the right word for this concept, I meant experience as a noun, not a verb, but admittedly the concept is still vague. Dawkins uses the word 'consciousness', and describes it as 'the most profound mystery facing modern biology'; a religious/spiritual person might call it a 'soul', or 'spirit' (which may or may not be immortal, or theological, since it does not imply to me the existence of any God/gods).

It is, for me, the prerequisite for existing as a moral entity. Which is, of course, problematic, it being a mystery 'n' all...
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 12:17 pm
djbt wrote:
Always difficult to find the right word for this concept, I meant experience as a noun, not a verb, but admittedly the concept is still vague. Dawkins uses the word 'consciousness', and describes it as 'the most profound mystery facing modern biology'; a religious/spiritual person might call it a 'soul', or 'spirit' (which may or may not be immortal, or theological, since it does not imply to me the existence of any God/gods).

It is, for me, the prerequisite for existing as a moral entity. Which is, of course, problematic, it being a mystery 'n' all...


I'm not familiar with Dawkins, but it sounds metaphysical. It begs the question, though, of whether the abortion issue should be resolved in terms of mystical speculation or empirical evidence. In the end, it seems more logical to base rules on what we can observe and test rather than on what we cannot observe or test.
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djbt
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 02:14 pm
Mills75 wrote:
I'm not familiar with Dawkins, but it sounds metaphysical. It begs the question, though, of whether the abortion issue should be resolved in terms of mystical speculation or empirical evidence.


Metaphysical, perhaps, but I don't see it as mystical speculation (as an aside, it was Richard Dawkins - evolutionary biologist and author of the Extended Phenotype to whom I was referring, and I have too say I have never before heard him associated which mystical speculation! My fault for quoting him out of context - see The Selfish Gene for the ideas I was referring too).

I agree that it is a question of empirical evidence - the problem is we don't have the evidence yet, and don't really know how to go about getting it! I have confidence we will, though, eventually.

Mills75 wrote:
In the end, it seems more logical to base rules on what we can observe and test rather than on what we cannot observe or test.


Perhaps, but if we know we lack the ability to observe and test the key factor in a problem, the most logical course of action seems to me to be to focus our effort on finding a way to observe and test what we currently cannot, rather than resting on the laurels of what we can. In the meantime, we should decide which side of the argument to give the benefit of the doubt. I'd would recommend the side which would cause the least harm were it wrong.
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 02:41 pm
Quote:
Perhaps, but if we know we lack the ability to observe and test the key factor in a problem, the most logical course of action seems to me to be to focus our effort on finding a way to observe and test what we currently cannot, rather than resting on the laurels of what we can. In the meantime, we should decide which side of the argument to give the benefit of the doubt. I'd would recommend the side which would cause the least harm were it wrong.


We can, however, pinpoint stages of development or circumstances when consciousness is not present. We might not be able to say definitively that consciousness is present when the necessary parts of the brain are developed and active, but there is overwhelming evidence that consciousness is not present when the necessary parts of the brain are not developed or inactive.
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djbt
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 04:52 pm
What are the 'necessary parts of the brain'? How do they differ from the unnecessary parts of the brain? Is it not possible that any brain whatsoever could imply a degree (however small) of consciousness?
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Mills75
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Mar, 2005 06:43 pm
djbt wrote:
What are the 'necessary parts of the brain'? How do they differ from the unnecessary parts of the brain? Is it not possible that any brain whatsoever could imply a degree (however small) of consciousness?


The lobes of the cerebral cortex would be the necessary parts. Consciousness, which basically refers to the knowledge of one's own existence (as it's being used here), doesn't seem to exist until sometime after child birth (well after the cerebral cortex is developed and active--it seems we actually have to learn that we exist). Now, as to whether or not a brain of any size implies a degree of consciousness--probably not, but it's not so much size that's important as is the presence of the proper features. Consciousness seems to depend on the cerebral cortex. Some animals (insects, most fish--I think, and some lizards) don't have a cerebral cortex at all. Mammals do, but not as complex as the human cortex (though there is a lot of evidence that the other primates are capable of self-awareness, too). You can sort of think of the brain as a computer and consciousness as a program. Unless the computer meets the system requirements of the program, it's not going to be able to run that program. Our brains don't meet the system requirements of consciousness until a certain stage of development.
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djbt
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Mar, 2005 01:57 am
Mills75 wrote:
The lobes of the cerebral cortex would be the necessary parts. Consciousness, which basically refers to the knowledge of one's own existence (as it's being used here), doesn't seem to exist until sometime after child birth (well after the cerebral cortex is developed and active--it seems we actually have to learn that we exist).


An interesting idea, that we have to learn that we exist, implies there is a fair chance that we do not, but I'll come back to that. Self-awareness wasn't what I meant by consciousness, which is partly why I used the term 'experience' earlier. You are right that our senses are, for the most part, what makes us able to experience, but the crux for me is what it is that is experiencing, the 'experience'.

For example, the ability to experience pain may not require the prerequisite of self-awareness. I would say that causing pain to anything that can experience pain is wrong, whatever other attributes the entity have have or lack.

This discussion seems to be leading us towards a more general discussion on the nature of consciousness, which seems fine to me, let's say the main road is blocked so we need to take a diversion before we can get back on track!

Mills75 wrote:
Now, as to whether or not a brain of any size implies a degree of consciousness--probably not, but it's not so much size that's important as is the presence of the proper features. Consciousness seems to depend on the cerebral cortex. Some animals (insects, most fish--I think, and some lizards) don't have a cerebral cortex at all. Mammals do, but not as complex as the human cortex (though there is a lot of evidence that the other primates are capable of self-awareness, too). You can sort of think of the brain as a computer and consciousness as a program. Unless the computer meets the system requirements of the program, it's not going to be able to run that program. Our brains don't meet the system requirements of consciousness until a certain stage of development.


An interesting analogue. It reminds me of Daniel Dennet's idea that the brain is like a computer with a parallel processor, and consciousness is software the make it seem like it's a serial processor.

From here, it seems we have three interesting lines of enquiry:

(Q1) Why do we experience? (Does the brain create consciousness, or does it 'tap into' it?)

(Q2) Does 'I' - the singular ego- exist? (If not, then while I might maintain that it is wrong to cause harm to an entity like an embryo, is might not be any more wrong to kill it than to not have a child in the first place).

(Q3) It death morally relevant? (If the singular 'I' does not exist, then is our illusionary sense of self morally relevant? If not, then would that mean that, while it is still wrong to cause pain, it would be no moral difference between an adult human being killed and the same human never being conceived.)

Hate to do this, but I've run out of time and have to go, I'll put some more flesh on these questions when I get a chance, but in the mean time, what are your initial thoughts?
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