We have a war - is it ours?

Reply Sun 9 Mar, 2003 10:43 pm
We will have a war - and it will be ours. As Mark Shields said on the PBS Lehrer show last friday night, this will have George Bush's imprimature all over it, as will all the things that follow.

My strongest hope right now is for the Chinese proverb to come true for George - "Be careful what you wish for......"
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Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2003 12:50 am
Well, My dear MAMA, Personally I find it extremely
difficult to get worked up in patriotic fervor. EVER!
I am still amazed at those who do. Blind followers.
Instill a wee bit of fear into the hearts of Americans
and they are out for blood. Reminds me of that
movie about Rosewood. Once things get started,
they can be hard to stop. Predictable as rain. But to
what END?? What purpose is going to be served
by a war? To the deaths of little people(on both sides)
who have no more interest in this foreign country than
in Chile, Honduras, Puerto Rico, Somalia, anywhere.
I just want someone to help me understand why this is
being made out to look like OUR war. Everyone keeps
What connection between "nine eleven" and Bush's little
warmongering really does exist? And is proven beyond
intelligent and reasonable doubt? NINE ELEVEN was ages
ago; AND I am still waiting. Waiting. Waiting.
Did the US ever, EVER find any definitive proof that these
are, for certain, the only group of terrorists that hate the
USA??? The ones who actually did the nine eleven deed??
I mean, after all - we DO inspire hatred in lots more than
just this one stupid little country. It hasn't been so terribly
unusual, in our country's checkered past, to have groups
of terrorists made up of totally 100 percent bonafide US
CITIZENS - has it? I'm thinking of the bunch of people
killed at Waco - or whatever it was called. They sure did
seem to be a bit anti-american didn't they. We saw plenty
of negotiation on that occassion didn't we? What, exactly
do you think the US government thought was the REAL
THREAT from a small group of radical anti establishment
weirdos. It was one heck of a response on the part of
our government. Talk about a little OVERKILL!!
And I still remember Kent State. I remember how the
US gov't dealt with many situations unjustly -way back from
the very beginning when the acquisitive little natures took
this land away from many, many - some quite large ethnic
groups of people who had been living on the land that is
now called the USA for ages. Has anyone phoned, or
asked you - or couldn't we put it to a vote - must we go to
war?? In this year 2003 can people STILL be so selfish? So
unwilling to communicate? So not willing for compromise?
So irreverant of the value of human life? Lives will be lost.
There ARE other ways to settle the differences between
nations. Communication - or attempts at mediation -
perhaps the USA being willing to ALSO disarm to the same
extent that WE demand of other countries??? Just a thought.
Are these people responsible for the events of nine eleven?
Are they the RIGHT ONES? I'm still waiting to hear one
shred of definitive evidence. Just like I am still waiting
to find out what REALLY happened to John F Kennedy.
I feel in my heart of hearts that WE lost this country many,
many years ago. We lost it to a military takeover that
was cleverly hidden from us. I mean, after all - it's not like
they are dealing with rocket scientists here...we are just an
average collection of everyday people who have NO IDEA
what kind of dirty goings on - make up the stuff of politics.
The show! But it IS OUR money, yours and mine and all of
our fellow Americans that Bush is using to bribe other UN
members into agreeing with him. We SEE it. We are AWARE
of it. We understand what he is doing. How something like
this can totally escape scrutiny by Americans strikes me
as very odd. I believe, a large part of this country doesn't
agree with Bush. But what is killing us? APATHY. NO REAL
knowledge of how our government sees us. I can't help
thinking of the movie - A BUG'S LIFE!! We are just the ants -
but we have no Flick. And the Hopper's of this world count
on our apathy, count on our feelings of uselessness, count
on us to not even raise an eyebrow while a presidential
race is clearly falsified right in front of our faces. There is
no sense of WE THE PEOPLE anymore. It's just ME, nobody.
And THEY - the powerful. ME, by myself, alone, am nothing.
But all of the me's in this big country are a mighty force to be
reckoned with, if ever the day comes when we have had all
the putrid garbage excuse for a group of people who are our
elected REPRESENTATIVES - here - in Wash DC to do OUR
wishes?? When was the last time that you FELT like you
were being represented by anyone???
Personally, I think I believe in my heart that I should
leave this country once and for all. Seek a country that is
non violent. A peace loving country. There ARE other
countries who don't behave like this. I think that what
hopes I once had for the future of the US, have been so
totally destroyed ... that I am ashamed to admit to
being a US citizen.
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Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2003 11:06 am
Wow! Babs, thank you for such a heartfelt post. I think we are all at the end of our rope now, wondering if there is nothing left to do. Some of us are marching again this Saturday in D C and altho' the administration knows about it, they prefer to put us down.

Here'a a heartening article tho' that might lift your spirits a little. It did mine...a little.

Anti-War Movement Amazes its Adherents

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Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2003 02:49 pm
Babsatamelia...wonderful post. I agree with you. I feel as though life gets more surreal each day. I get emails from veterans from the Vietnam war, mostly nurses and doctors who served there with me. Most are in support of the troops as I am, but against the war. Did you see the Sunday Washington Post front page section? There was a very long article about veterans from all the wars going back to even WWI (one man that is 108!). The comments from these men should be read to the president and the congress, but we know something like that would never happen: "Combat's Bitter Revelations...By the Time the Lessons of War Come, Its Too Late, Say Veterans." This is long, but so worth while. The Gulf War I veterans were just as affected.


This weekend there is going to be a huge anti-war march in Washington, DC on the 15th, and another one the following weekend of VETERANS AGAINST IRAQ WAR/OPERATION DIRE DISTRESS... Many are signing up to march and meet with their senators and congressmen. I will give you a website:


If you know veterans or families of veterans who would like to endorse or march, please pass this on!
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Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2003 10:35 pm
Hooo eee, Babs, did you ever strike a chord!

All that old Europe, other places, that don't want war. But the Bush cartel does. And now all their rationale is beginning to fall flat. The fact that after all this time they still have to go looking for votes, put on a show of bravado about the irrelevant U.N., vetos.. we look weaker and wronger by the day. We are the losing side. We can go into Iraq, slaughter people, but we no longer are people with a cause. And meanwhile this cartel is dragging us deeper and deeper into a pit. Consumer spending - the last bulwark - is now openly slowing.

Maybe because we have never been invaded? And, incidentally, 9/11 is the only thing they can bring up - it's the only argument left. And no, to date there is not even no conclusive proof, there is not the glimmer of a connection between Iraq and Al Queda.

You asked a question before, which touches on one of my favorite topics. The teaching of civics and American history. I find that too many people I talk to do not know what the three branches of government are, let alone what they are responsible for.

The Bush cartel has done such harm to this country it's hard to know where to begin. They are ignorant and uncaring of other people, they are so limited in scope that we have become a nation of plodders, and they are so single-minded that they have succeeded in making some otherwise intelligent people question things which shouldn't be questioned. All of this started getting plain to see when they started their dedicated persecution of Clinton. Only we didn't have the information we are now slowly getting. Of course it wasn't Clinton's womanizing; it all had to do with control for personal gain. And they used Clinton's economic successes to help get them there.

But I have faith. I do believe in just desserts, and this one won't be Belgian chocolate. There is no war to win in Iraq, because there isn't one. As more and more people back off, this obsession is becoming plainer, and it ain't pretty. There's an air of desperation becoming more and more public. It is getting harder and harder to justify. And the Bush league has accomplished something they never intended. They have made the U.N. stronger and more united, and they have succeeded in making Saddam Hussein less horrifying.

Just think. It is entirely possible that it will have taken two Bushes to make one president.
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Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2003 10:47 pm
listening to PBS tonite seems Mexico and Chile have come to the understanding that the US GB proposal is a line drawn in the water, totally unmeasurable except by US/GB there is no operational definition of what Saddam can do to avoid being invaded. thinking meself that this is nothing new, that from the beginning (1441) there as been a vagary of conditions resulting in a vagary of responses.
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Reply Mon 10 Mar, 2003 10:53 pm
Right on, dyslexia, and good for Chile (to whom we gave Pinochet0, and to Mexico. At last, at last, asking for benchmarks.

How long will they (because I don't consider myself part of them) be able to continue with the blinders, as more and more oppose us? And isn't hat a kick in the pants? Arrogance, arrogance, saith the Bushes, all is arrogance.
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Reply Tue 11 Mar, 2003 01:58 am
This nightmare goes on and on, I am really stressing over it. I saw on line news this evening GWB has really pissed off Blix. Who does he think he is? Never mind answer just had to vent.
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Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 10:22 pm
LOOKING for votes???They have gone way, way
past that point that Mama, they are BUYING them
now - what place is this that we have come to?
And yes, dear Vietnamnurse, my only and ex
husband was a mental casualty of Vietnam, and
WE DO LEARN, but there is money to be made here.
Already, the company that our VP Gore "used to"
work for, even though they are STILL paying him
exorbitant amounts of money yearly, and he says
this is some form of rollover thing?? PLEASE! I HATE
It seems that this same company just happened to win
the bid on who gets to go over there 1st, to put out the
fires in the oilfields which Bush is anticipating happening.
So, they will be there 1st, they will be there already to
begin the "reconstruction" of what Bush is now planning
to destroy.... so, if I get it right. Bush plans to utterly
destroy the country, and then build it back up, with our
money paying for both ends. And this same company
so chummy with our vice pres, well, they will get the
first and the most contracts and there is MONEY MONEY
MONEY TO BE MADE HERE, my dear friends.. ...the kinds
of money you or I never could even dream of.
bottom line$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 10:34 pm
regardless of my rheumatoid arthritis,
I would gladly sit in a wheelchair all day
every day, refusing to eat, like Gandhi did -
and maybe no one would care - but I
WOULD! I would care, AND I WOULD
Just get me to Wash DC, and I'll do
it in a heartbeat.
I would be honored to die for it,
it's as good a cause as any and
the RA is going to kill me anyway.
I'd love to sour Bush's war game.
Bush Inc. - wars for sale!!!
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Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 11:26 pm
Cheer up, babs. Looks like this thing is beginning to come apart. Tonight, on the PBS Lehrer show, it was said that this has now progressed from a war about WMDs to the U.S. war, which has ticked off a lot of people. In France, Chirac is a hero, and in England, Blair is in danger. And this summit meeting in the Azores consists of the U.S., Great Britain, and Spain, although I could have sworn that Bulgaria was considered part of the willing coalition. I wonder who thought up that catchy little phrase?
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Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 11:47 pm
I just saw it Mama- "time wounds all heels" Laughing Laughing
Don't mind me, I am a bit slow on the uptake at times.
You are a riot, my dear. Do you REALLY think there's a
chance that Bush,Inc. may be soundly defeated, trod on, Evil or Very Mad
denounced & labeled for the warmongering fools, they
are? Twisted Evil OHhhhh, That would make MY day!
My brother seems to be of the opinion that if a DECISION
preferably the no war decision happens.... that our economic
distress will be over. Or at least improve. My IRA lost half
of its total value since Bush came into office. Not that I had
all that much, but I would sure rather be the one spending
it, far preferable to losing it to an uncertain stock market
and worried investors. WHO KNOWS??
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Reply Fri 14 Mar, 2003 11:55 pm
Babs - Who knows? My son-in-law, who is with Morgan Stanley, does not feel this economy is going anywhere soon. Why does your brother think there will be a magic moment when it will pick up? Not with this crowd.

I understand the American chicken farmers are very angry that the Russians have placed some sort of embargo on our chickens and other meat. This is in return for Bush placing high tariffs on Russian steel, back when he was courting the steelworkers in Pennsylvania to get their vote. Sometimes it sounds very Gilbert and Sullivan, except that we are the ones paying the price.

Think on this. George Bush has never had to go and look for a job - they've all been bought for him. And despite the propaganda they put out about Texas, he's never been successful at a job either. There's no bar to raise here, and it's beginning to show. Confused
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Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2003 12:38 am
What steelworkers in PA?? Trust me, I grew up in
suburbs of Pittsburgh and that was when the steel
mills were going full force ahead. All that remains
in Pittsburgh is the gigantic U S Steel Building
They do their steel work outside of the USA to
get the cheapest labor that can be found... they
say that they have to do this so they can compete
with other countries steel prices. There are a few
specialty steel manufacturers left, but the majority
of the steel mills are all shut down - gone with the
wind. Gone, actually, due in large part to the gov'ts
demands that they clean up their act. And clean
up the environment, and stop dumping toxic stuff
into the 3 rivers. I do believe that all the actual
manufacturing of steel is done in Mexico, where
labor is dirt cheap and no one complains about all
the toxic stuff they dump into the water there. This
caused a major economic depression in the entire
Pittsburgh area. My father lost his business, an
engineering firm, over the dead stop economic
situation that was caused by it. Actually, Heinz is
one of the few companies still manufacturing in
Pittsburgh. Also,I don't know if you are aware of it,
but almost every one of our major drug companies
have "offices" in the USA, but all of the actual drug
manufacturing is done in foreign countries, poverty
ridden areas, dirt cheap labor. And these nasty
pharmaceutical companies actually have the NERVE
to attempt to get Bush to stop letting seniors get
their meds from mail order pharmacies in Canada.
Canada has nationalized medicine (which WE need)
and what THEIR gov't DOES is to impose a limit on
what the pharmaceutical companies can charge. So
our poor, our seniors, our disabled who try to get a
break because they can't afford to buy medication
and eat also - have been trying to make ends meet
by purchasing via mail order from Canada. If Bush
lets drug companies get away with stopping our
trade with Canada.... it is an example of blatant price
fixing and price gouging.
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Reply Sat 15 Mar, 2003 10:01 pm
It's sort of funny when you think of all those big business types calling for government out of their lives, but wanting government to regulate their being able to do business somewhere else. Michael Moore did a really sarcastic bit on Nafta down in Mexico a few years back, and it was so easy to see where the money was going, and how.

One of the things with Bush is that they bragged so when they came in about having CEOs, and knowing all about business, and the economy has been on a steady downward sweep ever since they came in. Fired almost his whole economic team, and hired people to act as cheerleaders. Heard John Snow on PBS the other night, and it was pitiful. He couldn't answer questions, was not informed, and didn't sound so great about the whole package.

As for the steel situation - I guess it's pretty general knowledge by now, but there he was (could have been West Virginia), promising the few steelworkers left that he would be forceful about renewing the industry, or some fool thing like that. Anything at all for a vote.

As for prescription drugs - well, I live in the heart of the drug industry. I am on enough meds that my sisters-in-law were getting them in Mexico for me, but I now have an alternative source. This situation is getting so big that I would guess we will have some kind of answer to it. More and more of us are turning senior. And, as we limp along, we vote.
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Reply Sun 16 Mar, 2003 03:43 pm
Hey, great posts, you guys. Just got back from the march in D C and I'm trying to catch up. Anxious to post with you soon. Take care, Joan Lee
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Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2003 09:32 am
Well it is war within days now. I must admit I held out hope even last night I thought something would happened to change the course of events. But it is out of our hands, we the people, do not have a voice in this. We never did I suppose but we will in two years and even in Texas it is a problem. Texans are for the most part ashamed of Bush.
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Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2003 01:04 pm
(From www.blah3.com: )

Well, it's crunch time. Bush will have his war, and it looks like he will have it this week. The propaganda is in full swing, with the administration delivering an ultimatum not to Iraq, but to the UN. Weapons inspectors have been told to leave Iraq, and the phrase 'moment of truth' is being tossed around like the latest advertising slogan from McDonald's.

This is a mistake of epic, historic proportions, and we will not even realize how big a mistake it is until people start dying by the truckload. Bob Herbert lays it out in stark terms in today's New York Times:

A stubborn, arrogant little man has brought the world to the brink. And in spite of millions urging him not to do it, he will lead us into the abyss. Look for the emergency passage of PATRIOT II once the bombs start falling, and then say your goodbyes to what this great country used to be.
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Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2003 01:24 pm
There is that saying in the military, when you are up to your neck in alligators, drain the swamp. Maybe we need to drain the swamp!
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Reply Mon 17 Mar, 2003 03:58 pm
And Robin Cook resigned in London.

You can win a war but lose the battle. Now the U.S. is saying that it is in the U.N. charter to clean up the mess that comes afterward in Iraq.

For many years, this has been the plan of the cabal to bring American dominance to the mid-east, and then spread outwards. As I look, there is no one in Bush's cabinet that is not a legacy of Reagan or Bush, and for them it looks like time has stood still. They will not and cannot see that so much in the world has changed since they first formulated this plan. After Desert Storm, it looked like the Arab countries, Europe, a good part of the rest of the world was with us, and these people don't seem able to understand that things change, that they themselves have created the monstrous situation we are now in. And maybe, in Bush, they have created a Frankenstein. Someone who was supposed to be a puppet has turned into a full scale egocentric madman, without the intellect he thinks he has but they know he doesn't.

Just think! The Clinton bashers that were so petty in their condemnations have reached new lows. I pray they pay for it.
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