who exists?

what do u mean mathos?

arw:-

There's a way of looking at things that might interest you.Only might.

Your problem,if it is a problem, could be to do with
"dissociation of sensibility".It isn't easy to explain quickly but I'll have a go because I like axl.
It starts,as far as I know, with St Thomas Aquinas.
"facientes cognoscunt" which means-By constructing they come to know.
There are two sorts of knowledge-
1-Knowledge which is the cause of things.
2-Knowledge received from things.
An artisan uses his knowledge to make things and a spectator simply looks.
From there it has been suggested that synesthesia is normal and that the isolation of impressions is not.The spectator isolates sight,or hearing with music.
Once photography and the visual image became powerful the isolation of the retinal image from the other senses became more apparent.Thus,some would say,insanity increases.
Another factor is the separation of the sense of perception involved in mass production where fewer and fewer people have any knowledge of how the objects they use and see are made.To most of us the horses at the races all look more or less the same but they don't to their breeders and others engaged in the operation.
From a political,or a philosophical point of view,if more and more people are going insane due to dissociated sensibilities caused by the stress on the visual image and alienation from production process
a point will be reached where they become a majority and declare themselves sane and enact laws defining the previously sane as insane.
What I would suggest,very tentatively of course,is that you try to increase impressions from other senses and reduce those from visuals.And find out more about what lies behind the objects you use and see.
If you have a look at Dylan's Series of Dreams video you will see,if you pay attention,a scene where he is looking in a shop window in which there is an image of a vast industrial complex.That bit of film first appeared in Dont Look Back and the shop window was displaying guitars.Such a change must have been thought through and it seems to me that Dylan was showing that he was seeing things in a more real way.The electric guitar is totally dependent on that industrial process.There's a gain in knowledge of how things are made and of the people involved.Dylan is showing a recognition of this which is to do with him becoming older and wiser.
Take an art piece.The artist/artisan knows and does.Idea and act.The spectator looks but unless he/she sees the doing there's a loss.When you see or use something you surely know other people have made them.If you don't then you maybe only exist to yourself but then so also do all the objects you use and see.You then value an artefact only for itself and don't see that it is the result of a complex of mental processes.When you read this,which is an artefact,I don't exist and if I don't exist neither does the post.
Even with a virtual reality device strapped on your head what you see is similarly the result of other people's efforts and skills.
If,for example,you saw a poodle which had been clipped into a wierd shape your attention ought to be focussed on the dog inside the shape.If it is focussed on the shape you are seeing something artificial which gives you no information about the dog and only information about its owner.
There are two quite famous books which deal with this problem.One is by Adolf Hildebrand,a sculptor, called The Problem of Form (1893) and the other is by Stephane Mallarme called Le Demon de l'Analogie.The latter is reputedly the source of the name Stephen Dedalus in James Joyce.There's an essay by H.M.McLuhan,which might be easier to find,called Joyce,Aquinas and the Poetic Process in Renascence:A Critical Journal of Letters.

That lot might help.The things I do for these sweet young things!

if you are the only person who exists then the only relationships and happiness that exists is yours. So is this good or bad? i personally believe that not many of us can derive happiness from being bad people. we are all selfish beings by nature, but will ultimately put ourselves first. if our reality is what we care about most the maybe the sentiment of someone who believes only they exist is not that different to people who dont think this.
however believeing that only you exist would de-value everything in ur life. if no-one else is there then music art love stories and poetry are all imagined. i personally do not subscribe to this belief. i cannot fathom that everything in the world is imagined by me.

well firstly what is good and bad? do they have any relevance to the argument? Surely what matters to me the most is my own personal happiness, if believeing i am the only person that exists makes me happy then this is a reaosn in itself to believe.
I dont understand how believeing i am the only person who exists would de-value my life because if i am content with this view then i can then see value in my life.
It really does not matter if i believe other people exist or not, I will still have the same outlook on things, still have the same need for interaction with other people.
The only way in which this belief would become dangerous is if I started saying 'i'll kill all these people because they dont exist' etc, which isnt likely. This could be felt by anyone else who does believe other people exist with the statement 'I'll kill all these people, because they are not me'

Theredfore, believeing other people dont exist (like me) is almost identical to believing they exsist but not being them (like you), it is the same feeling and reality, but just not the same concept or understanding of this.

also, thanx spenduis for that mamoth of a post!! The lenths people go to!!

arw:-

Don't mention it.I like axl.It must be odd for him to interact with you if you're not sure he exists.

Y'all on here to I see. Its real good goin to all these rooms and talkin t' diffrent folk, me n Sue bin readin allsorts today and we gonna improve our writin cos its fun we want to be like you all Shoot we's tryin

Are u joking and who is sue? and who are you?
But this site is gud.

Shoot hi Pentacle Queen, we wuz wunderin if 'n yur in the pentecosal church too, cos were good christian god fearin folk,'n Sue Mary is helpin me write 'n spell, n I'm Drowler, I never did graduate, but I can dance good. I live with mam 'n the trailer 'n its a double trailer 'n all cos mama bought it when ma pa got killed in the mine. We live 'n Alabama at Jackson 'n Jolene is with us ll now, 'n we bin eatin candy, drinkin sody and havin lost o tickles. An Jolene sez are you one o' them gay queens, cos they do that they pretend ter be queens, we get sum in the bar 'n there fun ttime, like when Billy Joe kept winnin cupy dolls at old time fair 'n we wez all tickled cos he never could win the brown bear he wanted, 'n we wez rollin on the floor 'n a real ticklin fit 'n all. Shoot thet wez fun

DQ, ah thank gud'll drowler be an impostah. see, ain't nobody in the saouth say he drink soday. everbody ah knows drink Coke. it even sez so in this ere article in able2know.com:
Coke, soda, or pop? Netizen drink up e-cola poll.

axlrw,

I was thinking, well even if everyone out there is just my imagination, I am still going to be nice to them.

Your question seemed to imply that if you think you are the only one who is real, you will become a monster.

See, if I become a monster and do bad things to the "imaginary" people out there, this "dream" I am dreaming will still slowly become a nightmare...to ME.

So, even if I am ultimately selfish, I am going to be good & nice to these imaginary folk for the most part, for my own good.

Make sense?

Some of us do believe a lot of this is an illusion and a dream within an enigma with a paradox within a puzzle.

But that is still no reason not to be loving toward the other players in the grand illusion. In fact, it somehow almost makes it easier to be a little nicer.

Just one step back, in slight detachment, nothing to get hung up about...

e.m.:-

The lady wishes to be hung up.She loves it It is getting her all this attention.She's in love with her "problem".Notice all the "I"s and "me"s in her posts.She's been given a start on a solution to her "problem" but she doesn't wish to discuss it.It is quite a common condition and it accelerates as time and inevitable decay take their toll.
Every psychologist will tell you that some things can't be cured because the patient doesn't want a cure-they simply seek the attention and excuses to talk about themselves and have other people do so as well.It is the basis of a fantastic business proposition especially in wealthy areas.Some men are in this sad state.It is due,in the main,to faulty socialisation procedures which are encouraged by those who derive income from them and it is growing and may well turn out to be the ruination of the capitalist project.A detailed enquiry may prove to be necessary at some point in the near future to determine the eventual outcome if the problem gets completely out of control.The simple but drastic solution is obviously to shut down television and to return newspapers to responsible editorial control.But really it is a matter for experts.
Mrs Onassis and Mrs Marcos were just high profile examples of the same problem and you can probably think of a few others.The excessive use of the first person pronouns is usually a tell-tale symptom and the activating agent is cash.Being nice is a cop out.

OK, P-Queen........I agree with you. What difference does it make whatever you believe about the existence of you or someone else? None that I can decern. Afterall......we're all in it for ourselves and our desire to get along with others has mostly to do with our need for company. It matters not to me if we exist or not. I'm just gonna have some fun until the light goes out.

firstly, spendius, im not some stupid teenager that sits, self-absorbed in her room until the early hours of the morning worrying about 'her problem.' I dont even know whether i believe other people exist or not. The point of the thread is to help find out (thus the i's and me's) what else could i have said?

lola, my point exactly, i completely agree.

drowler well i aint talked to dem folk from down south before but i sure have a little question for ya How dya fit a computer in a cararvan shoot that must be hard
ever heard of punctuation

TPQ:-

Don't try asking Germaine Greer.She'll give you a bigger gobful that I would dare do.

If I remember correctly the first response diagnosed solipsism.

You will never find out if other people exist or not until you accept that they do.Nobody is going to be able to prove it to you.The subject has been washed out these last few thousand years.As Lola says-it's a waste of time.Stick to your position and you might as well not exist.

spendius, you give me an intriguing thought. on the basis of reciprocity, ie. doing unto others, one ought to assume other people are real, lest they assume you're unreal. supposing other people are indeed unreal, one would be in a sad state to be taken for unreal by the unreal.

yitwail:-

Hiya.I don't assume people are real.I know they are real.Quite a lot of them I might wish otherwise but the world doesn't run according to my wishes.It doesn't give a damn about them.

i can't quite go that far, but that's semantic/epistemological nitpicking about the word to know. moreover, there are mentally ill people, who 'know' they're Jesus, Napoleon, etc., not to mention hallucinations of people that don't exist. by the way, there's a book i haven't read, but would like to if it's available, called The Three Christs of Ypsilanti, about 3 mental patients at the same hospital who each believed he was Christ.

1. spenduis i am not going to rest in my grave until you admitt that you can never 'Know' other people exist, as in brute fact.

2. yitwail, what you have said doesnt make sense if you apply the logic personally. for instance if you thought i was unreal, then i would know better because according to me you dont exist, therefore your mind doesnt think such thoughts, they just appear that way to me. They come out of nothing if you like. However, i have heard that solopsists go to meetings and meet with other solopsists, so what you are saying is true in some respects.

3. Yes this whole board is a waste of time, its only purpose is to reasure me im not crazy, and give u some brain food (if you exist.) Then again, has philosophy ever had a point? Does anything have a point? oooh, i feel another thread comming on......

since you brought it up, i believe some philosophy, like ethics or political philosophy, does have a point, in the sense of relevance to real life, whatever that may ultimately be. my hero, Socrates said, "the unexamined life is not worth living." i wouldn't go that far, but skepticism and inquiry are worthwhile, i think, if they're confined to domains where there's likely to be a final result, or at least a consensus. metaphysics, otoh, might be just a harmless waste of time.

liked your bit about solipsists meeting. reminds me of a procrastinators meeting being postponed because nobody shows up.

TPQ, What do you mean ?...........What do I mean ?

Yitwail, Lola, Spendius ( I see little if any point in separating you Spendius !)" Dear Boy!" You have been rioting during my absence and yet I see no signs of intelligent response in any of your 'Marjorie Proops ' type drivel.

Dear Axl Rose Wife, I thought at first you be merely jousting with underlings, having given you morsels of temptation and observing your feedback with un-biased anticipation I am satisfied indeed, that ;

'She knows, what's what, You know'

I salute you My Dear. Having been recently amused by Professor Ennis
who had been conducting 'Cambridge Style Budget Scoffing' research into homeopathy (she is a leading sceptic) when asked about the results, replied; -

'We are unable to explain our findings'

Truse scientists Dear ARW, rather akin to yourself find such results intriguing.

It took me some time to appreciate words of Einstein;-

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"