114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 05:22 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Quote:

Nothing works without competition. Universal solutions of all kinds end up becoming authoritarian, oppressive, and ineffective.


Is this a scientific fact or is something that all authoritarian and oppressive governments teach their citizens?

Do not get me wrong because there is no such thing as utopia and there will always be psychopathic behavior as far as I can see!


Not a scientific fact at all. Merely, an observable, consistent pattern in the history of human civilizations.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 05:30 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Merely, an observable, consistent pattern in the history of human civilizations.


That is why I said there will always be psychopathic behavior as far as I can see!

Many animals compete but I do hope that the majority of humans will one day see that our intellect is more constructive when we work together rather than in competition with one another!
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 05:47 pm
@reasoning logic,
rl--George can't handle the simple and obvious fact that the middle-class is now so big that there is only itself it can feed upon. Its members can not get one up on the Jones without the Jones being one down. And vice versa.

It's a battle to the death. The snake eating its tail. The uroborus symbol.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 05:50 pm
@reasoning logic,
Plato outlined such perfectly ruled and coordinated systems, but even he acknowledged that it would be a chore to find the incorruptable "philosopher kings" required to make it actually work. I don't know of any serious historians who believe that such political systems are achievable. Certainly the ghastly history of the 20th century demonstrated the utter failure of the Marxist models and the associated attempts to create "socialist man" as they termed their idealized goal. Many of these political theorists likely truly believed in the perfectability of human society theough shared resources, cooperation and the benign rule of the self-appointed "vanguard of the working class". Unfortunately it didn't work out that way. Many stubborn humans didn't want the kind of cooperation (and obediance) they demanded. Lenin coined a term for the solution to their resistance - "the elimination of the irreconcilables". It turned out there were about 15 million of them who were executed, starved to death or forcibly transported to Siberia and, for most of them, death.

Hitler had his own ideas about a perfect Teutonic state. It behaved in a very similar way. Same goes for Mao Tse Tung in China, or, for that matter Fidel Castro in Cuba.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 06:01 pm
@georgeob1,
We are evolving and we can see where some counties are doing better than others but rulers have always resisted giving up their wealth and have used psychopath ways to keep it!

The propaganda machine has been alive a long time but the global internet is educating the people and exposing the corruption!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 06:04 pm
@georgeob1,
But George, no serious historians have considered scientifically judicious segregation of the sexes in an organism theoretically capable of managing such a mode of life.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 06:32 pm
@spendius,
Historians usually focus on what mankind has done, not on what it might do. I agree there aren't many examples of the full application of Plato's prescription (though with respect to the segregation of the sexes, Sparta came fairly close). , however, to the extent they have been tried, only tyranny and poverty resulted.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 06:39 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

Many animals compete but I do hope that the majority of humans will one day see that our intellect is more constructive when we work together rather than in competition with one another!


Such majorities have existed many times in human history. Some did well for a long time; Some failed - none endured. The "more constructive work when we (they) work (ed) together " usually consisted of an orthodoxy embraced by the majority that ultimately faced challenges; demands for changes; and evolution from within which eventually led to internal conflict, change, and, in most cases the subsequent emergence of a new dominant orthodoxy and associated new majority (or powerful dominant classes).

Perhaps you are suggesting that this observable dynamic of history will end or come to fruition in a lasting, static universal orthodoxy that will take us to new heights. Perhaps, but I wouldn't bet on it.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 06:54 pm
@georgeob1,
Evolution is such a slow process that it can not be easily observed.
Things do seem to move forward a little faster in a technological age!
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 07:07 pm
@reasoning logic,
Possibly so. However, over the recorded history of mankind, we don't see much change in human nature - classical literature amply demonstrates this. The insights and illustrations of the human character illustrated in these works are as valid today as they were two thousand five hundred years ago.

Try reading some of the Ancient Greek playrights or even of slightly lesser Roman lights - Terrance for example. Or you could read some of the vulgar (almost obscene) epigrams of Martial (a Roman). One of his milder pieces illustrates the point;

You ask what I do on my Sabine estate
A reliable answer is due

What I grow on that soil
Far from urban turmoil

I grow very happy at not seeing you


The evolution to which you refer may well occur. However there is as yet nothing in the known record of human affairs to indicate that it has yet made any difference.

The biblical reference to the tower of Babel (probably based on earlier, similar storys from Mesopotamia) is a direct reference to earlier attempts at the creation of perfect universal states or systems. This suggests that your idea here is likely as old as human history, but has never borne fruit.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 07:21 pm
@georgeob1,
We now have a better understanding about ethics than the bible or what Plato thought to be moral.
Women have more rights, slaves are somewhat free so on and so on. We are evolving ethically as a group but we have a long way to go!
I hope to see people take a greater interest in ethics, political science and economics in the future.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 07:58 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

We now have a better understanding about ethics than the bible or what Plato thought to be moral.
What is your evidence of this? We just emerged from one of the bloodiest centuries in human history - one filled with wars, widespread extermination of large populations, tyranny, poverty, starvation and struggle. I know of no evidence at all to support your contention' Perhaps you will be so kind as to provide some.

reasoning logic wrote:
Women have more rights, slaves are somewhat free so on and so on. We are evolving ethically as a group but we have a long way to go!
Other now defunct societies have done as well in these areas, and yet the cycle of progress, destruction and regression has continued.
reasoning logic wrote:
I hope to see people take a greater interest in ethics, political science and economics in the future.
You are entitled to whatever hopes you may wish. However your assumptions about progress to date are contradicted by the facts of history.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Nov, 2011 08:10 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What is your evidence of this? We just emerged from one of the bloodiest centuries in human history - one filled with wars, widespread extermination of large populations, tyranny, poverty, starvation and struggle. I know of no evidence at all to support your contention' Perhaps you will be so kind as to provide some.


Study anthropology if you have an interest.

It all boils down to psychopathic rulers! Are these psychopaths starting to be exposed for what they are now?

I think that this is what is going on right now, only time will tell!

Male primates have been known to exhibit bad behavior that is environmentally learned but we seen it end in the newborn males when the adult males were taken out of the picture.
Do you think that the citizens are wanting to remove these psychopathic leaders?

Wait till you see what neuroimaging is going to reveal about these leaders in the near future!
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2011 03:40 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What is your evidence of this? We just emerged from one of the bloodiest centuries in human history - one filled with wars, widespread extermination of large populations, tyranny, poverty, starvation and struggle. I know of no evidence at all to support your contention' Perhaps you will be so kind as to provide some.


Just encase you did not want to research for yourself I added a link!
watch at least 5 minutes and you should get it!


0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2011 06:25 pm
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
Wait till you see what neuroimaging is going to reveal about these leaders in the near future!


That's interesting rl. Do you think candidates for office will need to provide neuro-images for the voters to study in the future?
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Nov, 2011 06:52 pm
@spendius,
Sounds like a good plan if the science can be proven to show a fair amount of accuracy! It may not be clear cut as DNA testing is but if it proves to be better than a 80% chance I will give it credibility when it comes to electing people into office!
0 Replies
 
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2011 01:12 am
I wish there were some way of gauging the honesty of politicians other than watching their political ads on tv. Since there dosent seem to be I will just do as I always do and assume all politicians are liers.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2011 04:42 am
@RABEL222,
That's what I do Rab. I always stick to the facts.
0 Replies
 
Miller
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2011 02:48 pm
The EE savings bond is now generating 0.6% in interest. Who's running out to buy savings bonds these days?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Nov, 2011 03:08 pm
@Miller,
I don't bother wasting my time to tie up my money in savings accounts, because after you pay taxes on the interest, the net result is zero no matter how you calculate it. Your time is worth more.
 

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