114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 10:52 pm
Quote:
If President Obama's economic policies have had a signature flaw, it is the conceit that by pulling this or that policy lever, by spending more on this program or cutting that tax for a year, Washington can manipulate the $15 trillion U.S. economy to grow. With his speech last night to Congress, the President is giving that strategy one more government try.

This is not to say that Mr. Obama hasn't made any intellectual progress across his 32 months in office. He now admits the damage that overregulation can do, though he can't do much to stop it without repealing his own legislative achievements. He now acts as if he believes that taxes matter to investment and hiring, at least for the next year. And he now sees the wisdom of fiscal discipline, albeit starting only in 2013.

Yet the underlying theory and practice of the familiar ideas that the President proposed last night are those of the government conjurer. More targeted, temporary tax cuts; more spending now with promises of restraint later; the fifth (or is it sixth?) plan to reduce housing foreclosures; and more public works spending, though this time we're told the projects really will be shovel-ready.

We'd like to support a plan to spur the economy, which is certainly struggling. Had Mr. Obama proposed a permanent cut in tax rates, or a major tax reform, or a moratorium on all new regulations for three years, he'd have our support. But you have to really, really believe in hope and change to think that another $300-$400 billion in new deficit spending and temporary tax cuts will do any better than the $4 trillion in debt that the Obama years have already piled up


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558931723540102.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories

OUCH!

However Obama promised to support the concept of cuts someplace else to pay or his jobs program, with out telling us what part of current government spending should be cut to pay for it, and the way I heard it he wants this debt added before we agree on what to cut. There is also the matter of traditional US Government accounting on promised cuts as well as for how much programs will cost tend to be flimflam. The basic question that needs to be answered though is what is this $470 (or what ever it turns out to be) going to buy us? Obama has dared Congress to not spend this money, and he has insinuated that we are doomed if we don't, but I have yet to hear an argument based upon anything more than soaring ideology that this addition of debt is prudent.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 11:19 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:

You speak as if you have a political science and an economic degree is this true? Just curious!


No. I read a lot of history though, and I run a fairly successful business. My education is mostly in science & Engineering. I have a PhD in Fluid Mechanics and an advanced degree in Aeronautical Engineering.

That doesn't make me right about this stuff, but it may be a better basis than constant attention to the political blogs of one side or the other that appears to be the specialty of some here.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 09:02 am
Quote:
Op-Ed Columnist
Setting Their Hair on Fire
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: September 8, 2011

First things first: I was favorably surprised by the new Obama jobs plan, which is significantly bolder and better than I expected. It’s not nearly as bold as the plan I’d want in an ideal world. But if it actually became law, it would probably make a significant dent in unemployment.

Of course, it isn’t likely to become law, thanks to G.O.P. opposition. Nor is anything else likely to happen that will do much to help the 14 million Americans out of work. And that is both a tragedy and an outrage.

Before I get to the Obama plan, let me talk about the other important economic speech of the week, which was given by Charles Evans, the president of the Federal Reserve of Chicago. Mr. Evans said, forthrightly, what some of us have been hoping to hear from Fed officials for years now.

As Mr. Evans pointed out, the Fed, both as a matter of law and as a matter of social responsibility, should try to keep both inflation and unemployment low — and while inflation seems likely to stay near or below the Fed’s target of around 2 percent, unemployment remains extremely high.

So how should the Fed be reacting? Mr. Evans: “Imagine that inflation was running at 5 percent against our inflation objective of 2 percent. Is there a doubt that any central banker worth their salt would be reacting strongly to fight this high inflation rate? No, there isn’t any doubt. They would be acting as if their hair was on fire. We should be similarly energized about improving conditions in the labor market.”

But the Fed’s hair is manifestly not on fire, nor do most politicians seem to see any urgency about the situation. These days, the best — or at any rate the alleged wise men and women who are supposed to be looking after the nation’s welfare — lack all conviction, while the worst, as represented by much of the G.O.P., are filled with a passionate intensity. So the unemployed are being abandoned.

O.K., about the Obama plan: It calls for about $200 billion in new spending — much of it on things we need in any case, like school repair, transportation networks, and avoiding teacher layoffs — and $240 billion in tax cuts. That may sound like a lot, but it actually isn’t. The lingering effects of the housing bust and the overhang of household debt from the bubble years are creating a roughly $1 trillion per year hole in the U.S. economy, and this plan — which wouldn’t deliver all its benefits in the first year — would fill only part of that hole. And it’s unclear, in particular, how effective the tax cuts would be at boosting spending.

Still, the plan would be a lot better than nothing, and some of its measures, which are specifically aimed at providing incentives for hiring, might produce relatively a large employment bang for the buck. As I said, it’s much bolder and better than I expected. President Obama’s hair may not be on fire, but it’s definitely smoking; clearly and gratifyingly, he does grasp how desperate the jobs situation is.

But his plan isn’t likely to become law, thanks to Republican opposition. And it’s worth noting just how much that opposition has hardened over time, even as the plight of the unemployed has worsened.

In early 2009, as the new Obama administration tried to come to grips with the crisis it inherited, you heard two main lines from critics on the right. First, they argued that we should rely on monetary policy rather than fiscal policy — that is, that the job of fighting unemployment should be left to the Fed. Second, they argued that fiscal actions should take the form of tax cuts rather than temporary spending.

Now, however, leading Republicans are against tax cuts — at least if they benefit working Americans rather than rich people and corporations.

And they’re against monetary policy, too. In Wednesday night’s Republican presidential debate, Mitt Romney declared that he would seek a replacement for Ben Bernanke, the Fed chairman, essentially because Mr. Bernanke has tried to do something (though not enough) about unemployment. And that makes Mr. Romney a moderate by G.O.P. standards, since Rick Perry, his main rival for the presidential nomination, has suggested that Mr. Bernanke should be treated “pretty ugly.”

So, at this point, leading Republicans are basically against anything that might help the unemployed. Yes, Mr. Romney has issued a glossy, well-produced “jobs plan,” but it might best be described as 59 bullet points with nothing there — and certainly nothing to justify his assertion, bordering on megalomania, that he would create no fewer than 11 million jobs in four years.

The good news in all this is that by going bigger and bolder than expected, Mr. Obama may finally have set the stage for a political debate about job creation. For, in the end, nothing will be done until the American people demand action.


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/09/opinion/setting-their-hair-on-fire.html?_r=2&src=tp

Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 09:04 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
OUCH!


You can't have an 'ouch' moment coming from the ed board of the WSJ; there has been no group more consistently wrong about economic matters than they over the last decade.

They just repeat the same mantra over and over again, no matter what the conditions are: tax cuts and less regulation... not a credible source of criticism.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 09:05 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

That doesn't make me right about this stuff, but it may be a better basis than constant attention to the political blogs of one side or the other that appears to be the specialty of some here.


This comment presupposes that others on this site don't have their own 'basis' of learning for analysis of modern content; and what more, a basis in History and Political Science that is more relevant then your engineering background.

Cycloptichorn
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 10:11 am

The US economy will improve only when Obama and his ilk are removed
from power, our economy will of continue to suffer under Obama's rule.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 10:26 am
@Cycloptichorn,
I agree; $447 billion is not enough, but understanding that the GOP/tea party will battle this measely amount leads us to understand why it's so conservative.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 10:35 am
@hawkeye10,
Good points, hawk; I really don't understand where the "savings" are going to come from. They've had this "discussion" many times before, and the biggest ependitures have always stayed intact.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 01:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

I agree; $447 billion is not enough, but understanding that the GOP/tea party will battle this measely amount leads us to understand why it's so conservative.


I guess you got to have the right frame of mind. That is almost the exact amount that is going to be "saved" from Medicare to pay for Obamacare - and with no reduction of benefits for anyone.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:12 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

This comment presupposes that others on this site don't have their own 'basis' of learning for analysis of modern content; and what more, a basis in History and Political Science that is more relevant then your engineering background.

Cycloptichorn


Read the words I wrote. I didn't "presuppose" anything. You are welcome to suppose that you know more about history and how the works works than do I, if that is your need. However, I doubt it.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:33 pm
@roger,
What's a measely half a trillion dollars?

We can get that going through the Koch brothers' sofa cushions.
0 Replies
 
winnate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:47 pm
@au1929,
I believe a way to reduce the trade deficit and to bring more industry to the United States would be to reduce the minimum wage. With the minimum wage set so high the industry simply puts more responsibility on less workers, thus raising the company's income and reducing payout. For example, the minimum wage in China is $3.35, and as more products are produced in the country it lower the costs, as it costs less to produce large amounts of goods. We ship out are raw materials to foreign country's and they produce the goods cheaply, and they eventually get imported back into the United States. Our trade deficit is growing and growing because of our greed, we cannot accept not to have this standard of living and the politicians are winning votes by promises to raise the income of each person and minimize taxes, when it reality that is simply not going to work in the long run. We cannot blame our leaders for this, they told us before they even got elected what they where going to do and this is a result of our own actions. There are many people who would be willing to work for less than minimum wage, and I personally thing 10 to 12 hour days are Ideal for these conditions. It occupies the workers time and thus they don't need the best of the best and the biggest house on the bock. I realize this sounds like exactly what we worked so hard to prevent, which it is, but take out your emotions and values and think of this concept. Right now, these people who could be living this way are instead living with nothing. Our ideology of the way life should be for all is great in theory but it simply isn't the way the world works. I'm not saying this as a millionaire either, I'm unemployed at the moment and have not one cent to my name.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:51 pm
@winnate,
How do you expect anyone to survive on $3.35/hour in the US? Reality check: nobody can.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -2  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 03:05 pm
@winnate,
winnate wrote:

I'm unemployed at the moment and have not one cent to my name.


I doubt that's the kind of change you hoped Obama would bring to this country, but his total lack of
experience has resulted in great numbers of Americans facing the same dire straits you are facing.

Hang in there.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 03:14 pm
@winnate,
Quote:
I'm not saying this as a millionaire either, I'm unemployed at the moment and have not one cent to my name.



Are you interested in a $3.35 hour job? I agree with a little of what you have to say but I would rather see the maximum wage brought down to the minimum wage and then we would all be making the same!

I say pay everyone who is college material to attend college with our tax payers money.


Do I sound to much Like a socialist?
winnate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 04:20 pm
@reasoning logic,
No I wouldn't be interested in a $3.35 an hour job. I apologize, I wandered a little bit on that post and my point wasn't clear, I understand that it is not living wage but I do believe that the rise in minimum wage will eventually lead to inflation in some way shape or form. For example, (I know absolutely nothing how this industry works, just bear with me in this) If there is, lets say, a bread factory, and there are 50 workers there getting paid $10 an hour, working 8 hours a day each, 5 days a week, they would each be bringing in $400 a week, before taxes. That would be $20,000 a week paid out by this company. Lets just say that they make 15,000 loafs a week, making the company have to charge at least $1.3 a loaf, just to break even on help, not including the material. Now lower the wage to $5, pay out $10,000, only have to charge minimum of $.75 per loaf, and raw materials would also be cut in half, due to the lower production cost. Thus they would have to charge much less for the product and would have a larger profit margin, making it more accessible to a person making half the wage, and also giving the company more money to hire more help and to buy more raw materials, thus giving them a much better opportunity for exports. These products, now being made and sold in the United States and being exported to other country's would bring raise our trade deficit, and eventually bringing it to a positive state. This is just my own opinion, there could, and probably are, underlying factors that make this improbable, if not impossible, but I'm just using my minimal knowledge of the economy to come up with this hypothesis.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 04:28 pm
@reasoning logic,
reasoning logic wrote:



I say pay everyone who is college material to attend college with our tax payers money.


Do I sound to much Like a socialist?
would we go back to being serious about educating undergrads under your scheme, or do they remain part time so that our youth can have plenty of time to socialize and get drunk?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 04:28 pm
@winnate,
The real economy doesn't work that way. There's a thing called competition, quality, and price. A loaf of bread has many price ranges depending on ingredients, quality of product, competition, and price. That's the reason why most supermarkets carry different brands of bread with many price ranges. I tried a cheap loaf of bread recently (I think it was $1.99), and I wouldn't feed that to my family or friends. Some people don't have the luxury of choice, and must buy that $1.99 bread. The cost to produce bread also varies with the company. In the long term, any product that has many competitors must understand how to promote their product in addition to understanding cost/benefit. It's a dog eat dog world out there, and consumers will buy products they enjoy and can afford. It's really not a simple matter to only look
at cost and numbers.
winnate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 04:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Your right, I guess I just oversimplified it to an unrealistic extent. If only the world worked that way.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 04:34 pm
Good evening. There is much debate about whether Obama's plan will get passed - even though the Repubs have previously supported parts of it. And there is debate about whether the $450Bn cost will make any difference in contributing to the revival of the economy.
Perhaps you all know all of the details. I certainly didn't.
Last year, Obama proposed and Congress passed a "tax cut" reducing the employee contribution to Social Security from 6.2% to 4.2% of gross wages. Depending on your choice of family income estimates, this put an extra $1,000 into people's pockets.
The Obama plan calls for extending that for another year. The "cut" though would go from 6.2% to 3.1% which would put an extra $250 per family into the mix.
Some Repubs argue that the elimination of a tax break is a tax increase and violates their principles, but this is an ineffectual tax break and doesn't violate their "no tax increase" pledge.
New to the discussion is the Obama proposal to cut the employer's share of the contribution to Social Security from 6.2% to 3.1% for "smaller" businesses. But wait, there is more. If an employer adds an employee or gives raises to existing employees, the SS tax on the new employee or the cost of the raises would fall from 6.2% to 0%.
Has anyone else tried to figure out this aspect of the Obama plan?

 

Related Topics

The States Need Help - Discussion by Robert Gentel
Fiscal Cliff - Question by JPB
Let GM go Bankrupt - Discussion by Woiyo9
Sovereign debt - Question by JohnJD
 
Copyright © 2025 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 1.07 seconds on 08/26/2025 at 01:46:43