114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:05 pm
@realjohnboy,
There are reports Obama will propose the creation of a public/private Infrastructure Bank, modelled after the ill fated Fammie Mae & Freddie Mac, to loan money to States, local governments and public/private developers for the financing of new infrastructure projects.

The notion that such an institution will either behave responsibly or not be politicized in its operation is rather absurd given the recent collapse of Fannie & Freddy which has cost the government far more than all of the private sector financial institutions it bailed out, and the record of Fannie & Freddy encouraging bad mortgage loans and misusing the Government guarantee.

This is basically a way to disguise government debt by keeping it off the budget and to remove important decisions and oversight for the applications of public resources from our elected representatives in Congress.

Our idiot president apparently can't imagine anything other than more government programs executed with borrowed money. What we need is greater private sector economic activity - he is doing all he can to suppress that.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Rasmussen is out with a new poll today. I have the results but I wanted to see if any of you all would like to indicate how you would have responded if you had been called. I found the wording of the 5 questions that were asked. Wording in any poll* is a very critical issue.
1) Does the U.S. spend too much, too little or about the right amount on welfare and other programs to help those in need?
2) A proposal made calls on the federal government to spend $46Bn a year to hire people on a temporary basis. Do you favor or oppose this proposal?
3) Suppose the federal government created 1 million temporary government jobs in child care, elder care, education, public health, construction and maintenance, and recreation and the arts. How likely would most of these jobs be wasteful, make-work projects?
4) Another proposal would be for the federal government to provide everyone with a basic income grant. The idea would be that everyone would receive a modest amount regardless of whether they choose to work or not. Do you favor or oppose this proposal?
5) Suppose someone has lost a job and has been looking for work for
a year or more. Should state governments offer such a worker a minimum wage job?

*I didn't quote the wording exactly but I think, with a preposition or two, I am close. I see at least 3 words I would quibble with.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:14 pm
@georgeob1,
It is possible that Mr Obama thinks, after taking expert advice from highly educated Americans, that greater private sector economic activity is dangerous at this stage. It isn't just a high sounding phrase. It might mean more Mexican jumping bean madness.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:16 pm
@spendius,
Mass hyperactivity syndrome.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:16 pm
@realjohnboy,
I disagree with all 5 questions. It's insulting as well as nonproductive for our country.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:29 pm
@realjohnboy,
1. Too much and most of that spent badly.
2. Depends entirely on the details of the proposal and what would be involved. However, based on the efficacy of past programs of this type by the government I would oppose it.
3. Based on the past record almost all of them.
4. Oppose
5. No
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:31 pm
@georgeob1,
Thank you for your reply to the Ras poll.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:35 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
There are reports Obama will propose the creation of a public/private Infrastructure Bank, modelled after the ill fated Fammie Mae & Freddie Mac, to loan money to States, local governments and public/private developers for the financing of new infrastructure projects.
It is dumb idea, because those with the money have long played one state off against the other demanding the lowest taxes and the most amount of corporate welfare they can get. Because of this states have limited ability to raise funds, loaning the states money for good works means that the states still need at some point (in theory anyways) to raise the money to pay it back. Perhaps this is all to be done with a wink and nod, that the idea is that in ten years or so the feds will forgive the loans as we routinely do with African nations, but this sort of flimflammery is not to be encouraged. States can not pay anymore than 20% of the costs, any program the aims to have the states pay anymore than that is is either a fraud or idiocy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 02:56 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawk, I agree; another dumb idea from Obama. There's way too many ideas coming out of the white house that only identifies spending money without knowing how effective they will be. There's only one conclusion: stupid.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:04 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

hawk, I agree; another dumb idea from Obama. There's way too many ideas coming out of the white house that only identifies spending money without knowing how effective they will be. There's only one conclusion: stupid.
But this idea is a bad idea for a completely different reason...and it indicates either a disconnect from reality or a basic dishonesty. It is shocking that we thought Obama was a serious guy who could come up with serious ideas when we read such stuff as this idea. Haven't we had our fill yet of thinking about the short term only, doing what ever it takes to get what we want right now at the expense of the consequences down the road?? Isn't this kind of immaturity how we got into this mess in the first place?

Obama needs to lay out a blue print for how we get our nation and our economy into a better place in 20-30 years, but right now he cant seem to see past Nov 6 2012.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
There's an easy answer. The republicans keep complaining about the lack of jobs under Obama; all Obama has to do is go the to GOP and ask them how to create jobs, since many of them are saying they can create jobs.

Simple.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:21 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
I disagree with all 5 questions. It's insulting as well as nonproductive for our country.


On what basis do you posit that silly assertion ci?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 03:44 pm
@spendius,
I am quite certain that Mr. Obama thinks private sector economic activity is dangerous - at any stage.

Thanks for pointing out the real problem.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 05:09 pm
@georgeob1,
Why do you oppose No 4 George? What grounds have you for assuming that working is more socially useful than not working under modern mechanical efficiency procedures. Of the 168 hours of the week how many would you say you are working during those weeks when you do work.

Is it not possible that 308 million people with a work obsession are the most dangerous loose canons anybody ever had to deal with? How high do you want the shite piled up?
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 06:31 pm
@spendius,
Does the UK provide you with a "basic income grant" ? Would you like to see one established there? What have you done to bring it about?
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 07:04 pm
@georgeob1,
You appear to be the only one willing to take the time to jump in on to the Rasmussen poll, Georgeob. I respect you for doing that.
My responses:
1) About Right. But I stumbled a bit over the phrase "other programs." I am scared shitless, for example, about the increasing obesity problem and what the impact on healthcare costs will become. That needs to be addressed.
2) I strongly favor. Strongly favor.
3) I favor as long it is, like #2, temporary.
I am inclined to believe that we may have a generation of people who won't know how to work.
4) No. The wording of the question was bad, I think. "...whether or not they choose to work."
5) No, but the operative word here is "offer" a minimum wage job. I may reconsider.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 09:22 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:
1) Does the U.S. spend too much, too little or about the right amount on welfare and other programs to help those in need?

Too little. Currently, I can think of no programs for the poor that I would cut, but several that I would expand. In particular, I would expand Medicaid coverage, various insurance benefits for the long-term unemployed, and the Earned Income Tax Credit.

realjohnboy wrote:
2) A proposal made calls on the federal government to spend $46Bn a year to hire people on a temporary basis. Do you favor or oppose this proposal?

I'm not familiar with this proposal. Based on this description, I favor it as far as it goes, but oppose it in that it doesn't nearly go far enough. It's at least an order of magnitude too little. What America really needs are major deficit-financed programs in the mold of the WPA and the CCC, until the rates of inflation and interest return to historically-normal levels. To put a number on things, call it $1 trillion a year until the nominal interest rate reaches 7 percent. After that, I would gradually dismantle the program over a year or two. The current American system is close enough to optimal for most periods in economic history---all periods, that is, in which America is not in a liquidity trap. Accordingly, the current system is in acute need of a major blood infusion, but not of surgery.

realjohnboy wrote:
3) Suppose the federal government created 1 million temporary government jobs in child care, elder care, education, public health, construction and maintenance, and recreation and the arts. How likely would most of these jobs be wasteful, make-work projects?

Based on the precedents of the WPA and the CCC, unlikely enough to make them a good idea overall.

realjohnboy wrote:
4) Another proposal would be for the federal government to provide everyone with a basic income grant. The idea would be that everyone would receive a modest amount regardless of whether they choose to work or not. Do you favor or oppose this proposal?

That would depend on what happens with other income-security programs. To oversimplify, I would favor the proposal as an alternative to them, but oppose it as an addition.

realjohnboy wrote:
5) Suppose someone has lost a job and has been looking for work for a year or more. Should state governments offer such a worker a minimum wage job?

Yes, and we can do it through the WPA/CCC framework I talked about earlier.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Sat 3 Sep, 2011 11:52 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas, Did you happen to read the Opinion Piece in the Friday WSJ by Gary Becker? The title is "The Great Recession and Government Failure"

A few excerpts
Quote:
.... Although many banks did perform poorly, government behavior also contributed to and prolongued the crisis. The Federal reserve kept interest rates artifically low in the years leading up to the crisis . Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, two quasi-government institutions, used strong backing from influential members of Congress to encourage irresponsible mortgages that required little down payment, as well as low interest rates for households with poor credit and low and erratic incomes. Regulators who could have reined in banks instead became cheerleaders for the banks.

This recession might have been a deep one even with good government policies , but "government failure" added greatly to its length and severity, including its continuation to the present. In the U.S. these government actions include an almost $1 trillion in Federal spending that was supposed to stimulate the economy. Leading government economists, backed up by essentially no evidence argued that the spending would stimulate the the economy by enough to reduce unemployment rates to under 8%.

Such predictions have been so far off the mark as to be embarrassing. Although definitive studies are not yet available about the stimulus package's overall effects, most everyone agrees that it was badly designed and executed. What the stimulus did produce is a sizeable expansion of the federal deficit and debt.

The misdiagnosis of widespread market failure led congressional leaders , after the 2008 election, to propose radical changes in financial institutions and, more generally, much wider regulation and government control of companies and consumer behavior. They proposed higher taxes on upper-income families and businesses, and extensive control over executive pay, as they bashed "billionaire" businessmen with private planes and expensive lifestyles. These political leaders wanted to reformulate antitrust policies away from efficiency, slow the movement by the U.S. toward freer trade, add many additional regulations in the medical-care sector, levy big taxes on energy emissions and cut opportunities to drill for oil and other fossil fuels.

Congress did manage to pass badly designed laws concerning financial markets, consumer protection and medical care. Although regulatory discretion failed leading up to the crisis, Congress nevertheless added to the number and diversity of federal regulations as well as to the discretion of the regulators. These laws and the continuing calls for additional regulations and taxes have broadened the uncertainty about the economic environment facing businesses and consumers. This uncertainty decreased the incentives to invest in long-lived producer and consumer goods. Particularly discourages was the creation of small businesses, which are a major source of new hires.

The expansion of government resulting from the stimulus and other government programs contributed to rising deficits and growing public debt just when when the U.S. faced the prospect of big increases in future debt due to built-in commitments to raise government spending on entitlements. Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare already account for about 40% of total federal government spending, and this share will grow rapidly during the next couple of decades unless major reforms are adopted.

A reasonably well-functioning government would try to sharply curtail the expected growth of entitlements, but such reform is not part of budget deal between between Congress and president Obama that led to a higher debt ceiling. Nor, given the looming 2012 elections, is such reform likely to be addressed seriously by the congressional panel set up to produce further reductions in federal spending.
......
The lesson is that it is crucial to consider whether government regulations and laws are likely to improve rather than worsen the performance of private markets. In an article "Competition and Democracy" published more than 50 years ago, I said "monopoly and other imperfections are at least as important, and perhaps substantially more so, in the political sector as in the marketplace.... Does the existence of market imperfections justify government intervention? The answer would be no,if the imperfections in government behavior were greater than those in the market."

The widespread demand after the financial crisis for radical modifications to capitalism typically paid little attention to whether in fact proposed government substitutes would do better, rather than worse, than markets.

Government regulations and laws are obviously essential to any well-functioning economy. Still, when the performance of markets is is compared systematically to government alternatives, markets usually come out looking pretty darn good.


A kindred spirit !

Gary has rather gently addressed many of the issues we have been arguing about heres. Clearly this icon of the Chicago School,of Economics is not particularly enchanted with either the policies of the current administration or the worse versions being advocated by the weasel Krugman.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 12:32 am
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:
Thomas, Did you happen to read the Opinion Piece in the Friday WSJ by Gary Becker? The title is "The Great Recession and Government Failure"

When it comes to macroeconomics, Gary Becker is all assertion, no evidence---the exact opposite of the papers that earned him his well-deserved Nobel Prize. To make matters worse, he states his claims so vaguely as to be irrefutable. I wouldn't know how to discuss them. You know how much I admire Gary Becker, but on when it comes to macroeconomics and recessions, he is clearly out of his depth. (If he has done any research at all on macroeconomics, Google Scholar hasn't found it.) Becker is not a kindred spirit to me in this field.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Sep, 2011 01:46 am
@Thomas,
Well this was an editorial, not a research paper or dissertation. It appears to me you are being unnecessarily categorical in your criticisms and making a rather sweeping macro/micro distinction that is not warranted by any evidence you have offered here.

Most of the important facts are obvious and irrefutable;
=> Entitlement spending is indeed about 40% of federal spending, and it is rising fast, driven by a combination of the known demographics, the increasing cost of services, and expanded mandates by the government, particularly for Medicaid. It is true the government has taken no action to corrrect this looming catastrophe, and indeed the Democrats are guilty of the worst sort of demagogery on the subject.
=> The stimulus was costly and it did indeed fail to attain the outcome put forward by the eminent economists who advised the president and the President himself , and by an "embarassing" margin to use Becker's phrase.
=> There were regulatory and central bank failures that added to the financial crisis. Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac, aided by Maxine Waters and Barney Frank did indeed influence the behavior of the mortgage market in ways that did exacerbate the expanding bubble. It is certainly arguable how this contribution compared to that of the market in the ascent to the crisis, but it was indeed an important piece of the action.
=>It is also true that Dodd Frank and other legislative initiatives have granted far more regulatory reach, power and discretions to the same regulators who themselves were culpable in the financial crisis (not to mention Bernie Madoff and others). Whether the government regulatory imperfections (to use Becker's term) were greater or less than those of the market is certainly an arguable point. However Becker has indeed made a powerful argument suggesting they were and continue to be at least equally as great.
+> It is true that the government has curtailed oil and fossil fuel extraction and done so at a time when the prices of these commodities in dollars are rising fast and driving our balance of payments through the roof. It is not at all clear that the rationalizations for these actions could withstand careful public scrutiny, given their highly adverse economic effects in this very uncertain and prolonged recovery.
=> It is indeed true that the most unusual feature of the current "recovery is the evident reluctance of businesses to invest in plant & equipment and growth. Becker has offered an explanation, based on the intrusive new powers assumed by government and the high uncertainty that prevaile about its future uses and effects. This too is certainly an arguable point. However, I have seen no alternative explanation for this highly unusual feature of the current "recovery" - none at all other than criticisms of wealthy CEO and their private aircraft. I would be very interested to read of any alternative explanation you might be able to offer.

I could go on, but I think you can get my drift. All of these are matters involve serious, arguable issues. I recognize that some posters here dismiss all these points out of hand (and do so without supporting argument or data or logic). For most, that is about all that I expect. However I have entertained greater expectations for you. You appear to have changed greatly. What happened?
 

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