114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 02:35 pm
@spendius,
And how did they show their appreciation? Kicked you out, didn't they.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 03:13 pm
@reasoning logic,
You don't turn Barbarians around in six weeks rl. You're addressing me as if I'm an idiot again. I'll have heard a few versions of that remark in pubs as well. It's a cliche. And shows a lack of understanding of evolutionary processes. A very convenient one it seems.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 03:15 pm
@roger,
Many say we got out.
reasoning logic
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 03:27 pm
@spendius,
Don't feel all alone because I ask a similar question on a Muslim forum and got the same answer!
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 03:48 pm
@spendius,
un huh
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 03:59 pm
@realjohnboy,
realjohnboy wrote:

I have been reading to today about Europe - mostly from sources there. I wish I knew more, but I see an obvious divide between northern and southern Europe. Germany seems to have hit a wall - political and economic - with its struggling neighbors, leaving France out on a limb.
We can talk about northern Europe's health, but isn't the whole notion of the EU and the euro teetering dangerously close to an abyss?


The EU has made very great strides towards unification over the past two decades, and has so far done so without seriously addressing importatnt political issues involving national sovereignty and the political power of the union they were creating. It appears that in the matter of combining a common currency (in the Eurozone) while retaining budget and sovereign debt management by individual nations - and after abandoning their earlier financial stability pact because it was then inconvenient - they have overreached a bit, and the consequences now face them. I believe the underlying issue in Europe is pronounced demographic change which has made previously effective social systems, no longer sustainable. The North South divide to which you refer also has its demographic elements with higher fertility rates in the norther countries - though there are other equally important factors at work there as well.

It is noteworthy that, even without the complexities faced by the EU, the United SAtates has gotten itself into a similar situation, and we too appear at least equally divided as to how we should proceed.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 04:54 pm
@georgeob1,
"It's the economy-stupid" is a famous mantra. Rightly so.

And on that subject Mr Obama is calling for cross-party co-operation. Which is a one party state.

The return of Caesarism. As Spengler predicted. If we are ungovernable it is necessary.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Aug, 2011 09:55 pm
Quote:
MILAN - The ghost of a new recession haunts the United States, and zombies of sovereign debt lurk across Europe. No one seems able to evaluate whether the Spanish and Italian bonds, whose prices continue to drop as yields rise, will have a second life -- or are already a financially dead man walking.

Indeed it has the makings of a horror movie, as ripples of fear turn to waves of panic now rolling across the connected networks of worldwide stock markets. The different worries on either side of the Atlantic feed each other: The United States economy is slowing down, and without the U.S. engine, the world spins ever slower.
In order to beat the sovereign debt crisis and attempt to consolidate public accounts — in Europe as in Washington — it is urgent to cut public spending and raise taxes, otherwise there isn’t any hope that other government interventions can give a jolt to the real economy.
It’s a globalized film, and among the large euro-zone countries, Italy is the one with the weakest growth; the spring forecasts of the European Commission, which mirror those of the Bank of Italy, give our country a 1% recovery on GDP through 2011, compared with a regional average of 1.6%.
The state of public finances, with a debt-to-GDP ratio of 118%, marks a record in Europe, and requires solutions different from those of the government budget, which was essentially dead on arrival, simply postponing a large portion of the budget adjustments to 2013-2014.
Within this dramatic situation, the latest in a series of sovereign debt crises was triggered. By now, the international markets no longer consider the bonds guaranteed by the US safer than private, individual bonds. On the contrary, if for tiny Greece, which accounts for only 3% of European GDP, the EU’s actions were too little too late, what could it do for the major economies of Italy and Spain? Very little, one fears.
In fact, it was far from comforting this week when the president of the European Central Bank, Jean-Claude Trichet, after having urged our country to lay the groundwork in our public finances for recovery, announced that the ECB had begun buying government bonds, but only those from Ireland and Portugal, and not Spain or Italy.
Not just speculation
But is it or is it not speculation that is raging against Italy? Speculative behavior belongs to those who sell a bond, usually without actually holding it, in the hope of triggering a decline that allows them to buy the same bond back at a lower price, thus turning a profit on the difference. In these days there is indeed speculation on security. But there are also many pure and simple sales of those who see trouble coming for Italy, and instead of betting against the deterioration of the situation, they prefer to simply call it quits.
While in Europe the fear is focused on the debt in the public balance sheets, on Wall Street the main worry is the anemic economic growth. Despite somewhat better news Friday with jobs numbers, we have seen a long series of data that depicts an American economy not nearly as strong as it was thought to be only a few months ago, most notably a GDP growth of 1.3%, well below expectations. (The latest grim news came Friday evening when Standard & Poor’s downgraded the U.S. from its AAA credit rating for the first time since it was granted in 1917)
The ghost that is hovering above the United States is that of a “double dip” recession after the stock market rally that reached its peak in May was proven to be but an illusion. This is the fear. The hope is that, like any decent big-budget film, the heroes arrive just in time. The charge could be led by the Federal Reserve President Ben Bernanke, who launches the third “Quantitative Easing,” to increase available credit by putting more dollars into circulation, and thus stimulating the economy.
But where does the money fleeing Wall Street in New York, Piazza Affari in Milan, as well as London and Frankfurt, wind up? Underneath mattresses (not as virtual as one might think), most likely because in times like these, choosing not to choose could be a logical choice. Gold remains at record levels, and the Swiss franc and German treasury bonds are solid. Some are even turning to the Japanese yen. Anything will do really…just to get out of the screening room of a movie that has gotten far too scary.
Read more in Italian from La Stampa

http://www.worldcrunch.com/milan-manhattan-making-horror-film-called-western-economy/3561
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 12:39 am
Quote:
China urged the United States Saturday to face the problem of debt and questioned the status of reserve currency the U.S. dollar.
In a commentary severe your little diplomacy, the official Xinhua news agency expresses the feeling Beijing after the degradation of AA + sovereign rating of the U.S. Standard & Poor's.
"China, the first creditor of the world's only superpower, is now in its right to require the United States they face the problem debt and ensure the structural safety of Chinese assets in dollars, "Xinhua said.
"There is a need for international monitoring on the issue of the U.S. dollar and a new reserve currency, stable and secure, can also be an option to prevent a catastrophe is caused by a single country, "said Xinhua.
China suggests that Washington reduce its military spending and social issues.
"The U.S. government must resign himself to a painful state of affairs: the good old days when he only had to borrow to get out of trouble he had himself created is over, "writes the news agency.
RESERVES FOR DIRECT IMPACT CHINESE
Chinese economists believe that the deterioration of the American note is a significant risk to financial markets and expect that China, which holds more than 1,000 billion of U.S. debt, accelerate the diversification of its assets.
"It will be chaos on international financial markets at least in the short term . The most direct impact for China of its reservations. The dollar value of investments in China will fall, "said Li Jie, director of an institute at the Central University of Finance and Economy.
" China will need to consider other investments. The U.S. Treasury is no longer safe. There are the markets for riskier types of assets that (bonds) AAA, but less risky than AA +. China 's not thought of before but will have to do it, "he says.
For Ding Yifan, deputy director of a think tank associated with the Chinese State Council, the United States will have to ease monetary policy further, this possibly by a third operation 'quantitative easing', consisting for the Fed to buy Treasury bills.
"If the U.S. launches a truly EQ3, it will undoubtedly add to the uncertainty in the economy World and drive up commodity prices, "he said.


http://www.lesechos.fr/economie-politique/monde/actu/reuters_00367928-la-chine-s-en-prend-a-washington-et-au-statut-du-dollar-203331.php

Our number one banker has given us our marching orders. And they are right that the FED will not resist QE3, which will drive up commodity prices again just when the American consumer can least afford it. Already the economists are talking about how discretionary spending is shrinking fast due to high food and fuel costs, and the stubborn refusal of the wage situation to improve.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 12:52 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The day after Standard & Poor’s took the unprecedented step of stripping the United States government of its top credit rating, the ratings agency offered a full-throated defense of its decision, calling the bitter stand-off between President Obama and Congress over raising the debt ceiling a “debacle.” It warned that further downgrades may lie ahead.


In an unusual Saturday conference call with reporters, senior S.& P. officials insisted the ratings firm hadn’t overstepped its bounds by focusing on the political paralysis in Washington as much as fiscal policy in determining the new rating. “The debacle over the debt ceiling continued until almost the midnight hour,” said John B. Chambers, chairman of S.& P.’s sovereign ratings committee.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/business/a-rush-to-assess-standard-and-poors-downgrade-of-united-states-credit-rating.html?_r=1&hp

This after team Obama had spent most of the last 24 hours sniveling about the down-grade. It is nice to see that the rating agencies might have recently developed enough stones to do their jobs.

Quote:
On Thursday, the ratings agency informed the Treasury that its seven-person panel would meet Friday morning to assess the creditworthiness of the United States government.

Even then, one administration official said, “We didn’t think they would actually do it.


Team Obama miscalculate??!!.... SHOCKING!! *sarcasm*
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 04:16 am
@hawkeye10,
I would imagine that S&P think that a nation that owes $20 trillion and has no political system able to organise repaying it is at junk status from the lenders point of view. And it is lenders S&P are advising.

AA+ for the political debacle we have just seen seems a bit odd to me. Borrowing more to pay off maturing bonds is what Madoff did isn't it? I would expect solvent states, if there are any, to start thinking of independence.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 04:35 am
@spendius,
No. Bernie collect money from investors and didn't buy anything. Anyone demanding redemption was paid with money from new investors.

Kind of comes to the same thing, now that you put it that way.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 05:24 am
@roger,
From "No" to "Yes" in three lines is a bit astounding rog.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 05:45 am
@spendius,
You are kind of like Jesus you healed the blind!
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 05:53 am
@spendius,
Quote:
I would imagine that S&P think that a nation that owes $20 trillion and has no political system able to organise repaying it is at junk status from the lenders point of view. And it is lenders S&P are advising


Then why not reflect what it thinks its true status is? I guess they just have to share a little of the lenders view.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 07:19 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
You are kind of like Jesus you healed the blind!


Is not that a dangerous proposition for you to use rl? Apply it to the Gospels and all your arguments against miracles fall to the floor.

Actually, roger healed himself. The argument was child's play. He just hadn't seen the comparison before. The debt ceiling was raised not to pay off the debt but the continue servicing it in the short term--i.e. until the next election. That's because Mr Obama is not statesman enough to put the next generations above his own political advancement after taking the view that the voters will vote down doing the right thing.

Some might conclude that the Constitution is out of date. It was written at a time when sex, race and property qualifications were required to vote. And the qualifications varied from state to state.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 08:00 am
@spendius,
Quote:

Is not that a dangerous proposition for you to use rl? Apply it to the Gospels and all your arguments against miracles fall to the floor.


If I could get Spendius to see then I would be like Jesus myself.

I have said it many times before that it is that type of miracle that seems logical and not the magical type the church teaches!

Seems Jesus only had to perform one miracle, the other miracles followed the turning water into spirits, but it was not the type of spirits that they serve at the pub that get you drunk.
Instead it was a holy spirit or logical spirit { a logical idea] that makes you see, hear and understand how to walk though life without stumbling. Kind of a resurrection from a dead beat life!
If people could see the part about casting stones at others we might be some where.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 09:16 am
@reasoning logic,
As I understand it the water into wine was a sarcastic joke. If one was a guest at a wedding one was expected to bring some wine. The Jesus crowd was skint and brought water and the guests sarcastically complimented them on the quality of their wine. Something like that. I don't know. I wasn't there thank goodness.

A bit like when our Queen visited the millionth council house, or ten millionth, and remarked to the lucky mum how spacious the rooms were.

Two thousand years from now people might believe that our accomodation for the poor was spacious. If, by then, the poor are living in underwater tubes, as they might well be, it will be believable.

You take the Bible too seriously rl. Perhaps you have no irony genes. I've heard such things are rare in the US. Which is understandable for the most wonderful people on earth living in the greatest country that ever has been. And proud of it; skid marks and all.

Don't the endless repetitions of being told about your wonderfulness and greatness not raise a suspicion that you are not so sure about it really and are in need of constant reassurance. Like when kids are continually told that they are all little geniuses and the schools have to give them all honours to avoid being burnt to the ground by irate parents who refuse to have their genetic material spoken of honestly.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 09:33 am
@spendius,
Quote:
You take the Bible too seriously rl


Are you claiming it to be a joke? I do agree that it is not the 100% word of God but it is good reading. I just wish I had access to all the other books that the Vatican once held, then we could really be making a joke of things!
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Aug, 2011 09:44 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Don't the endless repetitions of being told about your wonderfulness and greatness not raise a suspicion that you are not so sure about it really and are in need of constant reassurance


I did not have that problem, they failed me in school so I was able to see that I was different than the other kids and was not so special!
 

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