114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 04:42 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:

Every industry in the country is subject to various kinds of regulation by the Federal and local governments. That doesn't mean that they are centrally planned in the usual sense in which that phrase is used.


Parados' argument not withstanding, isn't it fair to say that the transmission and load balancing system is in fact subject to a good deal of central planning?

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:01 pm
On the US economy:

Homes are now selling for the price of cars.
http://realestate.yahoo.com/promo/4-bedrooms-for-the-price-of-4-wheels.html

This is going to spread to more locations as government workers loose their jobs and/or cut in pay.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
"Central Planning" by whom ? There are four or five quasi independent grids in the country that are interconnected by main power trunks. They were built by the old regional electrical utilities in the days before deregulation and have since been expanded in an informal private alliance of power producers and distributors. There is a good deal of law and regulation governing the pricing of electrical power, and a highly developed private market for wholesale buying and selling power under short and long term contracts. The transmission lines and their connections are the private property of the companies that own and operate them, as are the power plants that produce and feed the electrical power to them.

The system is regulated by government, but it was neither planned nor built by the government.

If you want to call that central planning it is OK with me.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:12 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The system is regulated by government, but it was neither planned nor built by the government.

If you want to call that central planning it is OK with me.


I do! The system is set up to ensure a solid and uninterrupted power supply to citizens. It isn't set up to ensure or maximize profits for private companies. A new power-generation company that wanted to sell their energy on the open market would have to buy into the regulation scheme to participate.

Not everything is black-and-white, yaknow. All 'central planning' isn't ran by a group of Russians in a smoke-filled room.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Is this really the ci I know and love?

You sound like a Chris Christie fan.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:24 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Empty coal cars heading back to WVA.

They wouldn't take coal to WVA. Or cars to Detroit. Or gas to Lousiana. Or grain to the mid-West.

It was not, I think, as stupid a comment as you might think, Spendius. All of the coal trains passing through Crozet are heading west and the cars are empty. A 1000 or 2000 a day. No coal heading for the ports to the east passes through Crozet. A route was designed that is largely level or downhill all of the way 90 or so miles south.
Crozet is named after Claudius Crozet, a French engineer who built the rail tunnel through the Appalachian Mountains (1848-1856). 4,281 feet long which held the record for awhile. It had no vertical air shafts. They dug from both ends and when they met they were a mere 1/2" out of alignment.
Recent research suggests that many of the laborers were black men from state prisons.
The tunnel was closed and sealed in 1944 when a new tunnel was built to handle taller cars.
I am peripherally involved (i.e. giving money) to an effort to incorporate the tunnel into the Hike and Bike system. The logistics (lighting, ventilation, dripping water, liability insurance, access to the entrances across private farmland) are daunting.
Back now to our regularly scheduled trash talking.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:26 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
The tunnel was closed and sealed in 1944 when a new tunnel was built to handle taller cars.


I did a midnight tour once of an old, sealed train-tunnel. It was pretty much the creepiest thing I've ever done.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:32 pm
@spendius,
It already did (proportionately) in 2010, and will take the next step in 2012

Obama is coming across like the Old School political hack he is with his budget.

His gamble that people are stupid enough to believe that calling for spending in excess of proposed cuts is fiscal responsibility...because the spending is called "investing" is falling short.

What contempt he and his advisors have for the American people.

Proportionately similar to the contempt these Middle Eastern despots have for their people.




Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

It already did (proportionately) in 2010, and will take the next step in 2012

Obama is coming across like the Old School political hack he is with his budget.

His gamble that people are stupid enough to believe that calling for spending in excess of proposed cuts is fiscal responsibility...because the spending is called "investing" is falling short.


Um, his budget calls for spending AND tax raises. The tax raises more than make up for the additional spending. You somehow left that part out. Makes his budget look a lot better when you include, yaknow, all of it.

Quote:
What contempt he and his advisors have for the American people.

Proportionately similar to the contempt these Middle Eastern despots have for their people.


I'm quite sure that they hold people like you in contempt. But that has more to do with your penchant for intellectual dishonesty than it does anything else.

Be honest - you didn't read his budget or put any real effort into understanding it. Just an article on NRO or something, right? Right.

Cycloptichorn
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:50 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Of course I didn't read his budget, but I suppose you're going to tell us that you did.

In any case, raising taxes is going to go over real big with Americans!

It's only class warriors like you who long to suck the "rich" dry.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
I did a midnight tour once of an old, sealed train-tunnel. It was pretty much the creepiest thing I've ever done.


So you haven't yet come across an interesting woman.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:57 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Of course I didn't read his budget, but I suppose you're going to tell us that you did.


I read more of it than you did, apparently; after all, you left out the revenue half and pretended it didn't exist.

But, hey. If you really want to get into the weeds on the thing - test me. You know I'd love it.

Quote:
In any case, raising taxes is going to go over real big with Americans!


I think it will just fine. You have no idea what you are talking about and have looked at none of the polling at all - just projecting.

Quote:
It's only class warriors like you who long to suck the "rich" dry.


Finny, let me help you learn a new skill. It's called 'doing research before opening your idiot mouth.' I recommend you try it.

Quote:

Who Knew? Americans Actually Agree on How to Fix the Deficit


By Eric Schurenberg | Feb 14, 2011 | 1 Comment

Three months after the bitter midterm elections, two months after the National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform returned its split verdict, and the day that President Obama unveiled his $3.7 trillion budget for 2012, cooperative, bipartisan fiscal policy looks like a pipe dream. Everyone knows what voters don’t want. Republicans know that supporting any tax hike is a political death sentence, one their Tea Party wing would be only too happy to administer. Instead, the Republican proposed 2011 budget revision cuts $100 billion out of things like job training and the supplemental nutrition program for women and leaves taxes untouched. Democrats, in turn, know their voters won’t stand for spending cuts in sacred cows like Social Security, and they make no mention of any such cuts in Obama’s 2012 budget proposal, even though no serious budget balancing proposal can do without them.

As for what voters do want, the polls offer only magical thinking. Cut the deficit, but don’t touch any of the popular programs that account for 85% of the budget, and don’t raise taxes. Stop the bipartisan bickering, but don’t compromise. The people have spoken on fiscal policy, but what they say is incoherent.

Or maybe we aren’t giving them enough credit.

That would be one hopeful interpretation of an intriguing study released this month by the Program for Public Consultation at the University of Maryland. The problem with most opinion surveys on fiscal policy is that they ask respondents to opine on spending or tax options in isolation. (Do you want to cut Social Security? Do you want to raise taxes? Why be surprised when respondents say no?) The Maryland survey instead presented 2,000 voters a complete sample budget for the year 2015-necessarily simplified but accurately represented, with the help of the National Commission-and asked them to make their own tradeoffs and create their own federal budget. (If you like, you can balance the federal budget yourself using the Maryland questionnaire.)

The results defied the cynical conventional wisdom. Democrats cut spending. Republicans and Tea Party sympathizers raised taxes. People who lived in blue Congressional districts and those who lived in red ones reached remarkably similar solutions on what spending to cut and what taxes to raise, and by how much. Said the study’s researchers: “It is striking that no group-Republican, Democrat, or independents-acted on average in ways that fit their respective media stereotypes.”

Among the most notable results of the exercise:
On average, respondents cut spending and raised taxes, regardless of party affiliation.

Overall, the voters in the study cut the hypothetical 2015 budget deficit by 70%, with one third of the reduction ($145 billion) coming from spending cuts and two thirds ($291 billion) from revenue hikes. According to stereotype, Democrats should have cut spending the least and Republicans the most, with independents somewhere in between. But that’s not how it played out.

* Republicans actually cut spending the least ($100 billion)
* Democrats cut spending far more than Republicans ($157 billion)
* Independents cut more than either ($195 billion)
* On average, residents of blue districts cut spending more than residents of red districts ($153 billion to $141 billion).

There was broad agreement on what programs to cut, what to increase and what to hold constant.

Presented with 31 categories in the discretionary budget, members of both parties and independents agreed on how to handle 22.

* All agreed, for example, to cut funding for defense, the State Department and the highway system
* All agreed to increase job training, education and foreign humanitarian assistance.
* Spending decisions split along party lines on categories that included homeland security (only Republicans favored an increase) and mass transit (only Republicans wanted a reduction).

People favored raising taxes on the rich


Most polls find that Americans prefer to shrink the deficit by cutting spending rather than raising taxes. When actually presented with realistic budget choices, however, participants in the study (even Republicans) were willing to raise taxes. More than 90% of respondents included tax hikes in their budget plans, mostly in the form of higher effective tax rates on households with incomes over $100,000. Once again, the breakdown defied expectations.

* While Democrats were most inclined to raise individual income taxes (on average they’d raise $178 bilion), Republicans and strong Tea Party sympathizers were also willing to lift income taxes significantly ($125 billion and $105 billion, respectively).
* While respondents tended to most support raising income taxes on people in higher tax brackets than their own, they were surprisingly willing to accept an increase in their own bracket as well.
* Increasing payroll taxes on high wage earners was the most popular tactic for closing the Social Security funding gap


http://moneywatch.bnet.com/retirement-planning/blog/financial-independence/who-knew-americans-actually-agree-on-how-to-fix-the-deficit/1204/

There is broad agreement amongst citizens, in both polls and studies, that taxes will have to go up - and especially YOUR taxes, Finn. You and those who believe that we can solve our problems without a combination of spending cuts AND tax increases are the minority group and the ones living inside a fantasy world.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 05:59 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
When you write ... "it isn't set up to ensure maximize profits for proivate companieS", I think you take on a burden of proof you haven't met. The system in question was designed and constructed, and is cirrently operated, by mostly publically traded companies, which, by law, have a duty to their investors to seek and maximize profits. You are implicitly assuming that private economic activity cannot also serve the public good in the absence of government control. That is obviously false.

You are playing with words to lend weight to some strange and obviously false notions.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 06:01 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
You are implicitly assuming that private economic activity cannot also serve the public good in the absence of government control. That is obviously false.


I am asserting that it rarely if ever does. Without government regulation of the energy market, there would exist no cooperation such as we see today and the energy market would look totally different.

While individual companies have a responsibility to maximize profits - an odious law that I'd love to go into later - the system which ensures that power remains flowing through transmission lines certainly does not. It limits those companies.

Cycloptichorn
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 06:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Obama is coming across like the Old School political hack he is with his budget.


Have you not worked out yet Finn than none of them know what they are doing? Inflation, interest rates, unemployment, bond markets, the dollar, investment, demographics, welfare, voters--it's quite a mix.

I think we are being levelled down but slowly like when the matron in girl's school infirmaries pull off sticking plasters from the flesh of their charges. How can we not be when other nations have our machines being operated at $20 a week, unit cost of shipping is so low and attitudes at the check out.

We have to hope that the rest of the world is being levelled up and the intersection is acceptable. Which is ridiculous I know but there it is.

I think stupidity is fairly constant throughout history.

parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 06:10 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
The system in question was designed and constructed, and is cirrently operated, by mostly publically traded companies,

That may be true but how did those companies get the right of way to put in their lines? Hmmm..... I wonder....... It couldn't be because of ... um... the government?


Oh.. wait.. No... these are publicly traded companies and the government wasn't involved at all. I'm sure these companies compete equally in every market and none of them are exclusive suppliers to any part of the country. In fact, I bet your house has 12 different power lines coming to it, doesn't it goerge? Surely it must since there was no planning involved by any government. In fact the PUC doesn't exist in any state, does it george?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 06:12 pm
Electricity is not like chocolate biscuits or mousetraps.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 07:01 pm
Something like 400 budget-cutting amendments were introduced in the House today.
Does anyone know what is Mo-hair and why we should be subsidizing its production? I thought it might have something to do with goths and punks and their penchant for dyed hair, but apparently that is wrong.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 07:44 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I do think that you see reality correctly! The world is watching us with the internet and I do think that this makes matters better because they also are seeing reality for what it is to some degree!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRP52BqhQU8
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Feb, 2011 09:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Your argument is fallacious. We are all limited from a host of actions, ranging from theft to murder. Despite this we speak of our freedoms and don't consider ourselves or our society to be centrally controlled. There are and have been societies that did indeed attempt to centrally control most aspects of their citizen's lives - the word we use for them is totalitarian. There is a difference between the oppressive ant hills of the USSR, Cuba or that of China a few decades ago and the societies we call free and democratic. That difference is the result of the lack of central control of peoples lives, political, social, and economic activity.

Every industry, profession or service organization in this country is subject to some limits on its behavior. These limits are based on the strictly enumerated powers of the Federal government and the greater range of powers posessed by state governments. Despite this there are limits on all of those powers based on our Constitution.

While there are elements of regulation in all industries, however, none of them were created by our government and none of them are centrally controlled by it.

If you wish to assert that the existence of any government control over any element in our society establishes the fact of central control, then you will have to invent a new vocabulary for real authoritarian controls.
 

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