114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 04:02 pm
Brand X wrote:
The ethanol fuel gig is a political short-sighted exercise in stupidity which will create more problems than it ever could solve.

It is at the moment. I hope that within 10 years or so, we'll see a maturing of technology to make ethanol from the cellulose in straw. This would solve the problem. But even then, I wouldn't be a fan of ethanol subsidies.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 04:38 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
Do you know kudzu?

No. I thought the solution was "switch grass?"

Seriously, I agree with Thomas, that the technology has potential, but is not yet proven to be a very successful industry without artificial subsidies, at least not one that will solve the energy problem. For the reasons already stated, it may cause more problems than it solves.

Again, to be redundant, the free market is a beautiful thing that has proven itself over and over again throughout history. We should simply trust it to find the most efficient energy method. Right now, oil is pretty efficient for producing gasoline. As it becomes harder to produce and thus more expensive, other technologies will be developed by people that want to make a buck.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 05:01 pm
I must be living in another universe with another c.i. and okie, because I agree with "okie's" last post. It ain't me, and it ain't "him."
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 06:48 pm
Very strange indeed ci. Realjohnboy can turn active threads into ones that are numbingly dull.
I would respectfully suggest that the oil and gas industries have gotten in the past, and will probably get in the future, "subsidies" in the form of tax breaks and favorable legislation on where they can drill. So be it. I am not arguing that here.
Rather, I hear yall (ci, okie, thomas, brandx) suggesting that no form of energy source competing with oil should be given any support other than the free market force.

I think that that is short-sighted. If, for example, solar energy is now efficient enough that folks in some parts of the country could power their own homes and perhaps feed surplus power back into the grid, wouldn't it make sense to give those folks some sort of tax break to cover the cost of installing such a system? Is that a subsidy? I reckon it is. It that running around rather than jumping over the hurdle of the "free market.?" Yeah, I reckon it is. But I think I can live with the rules of the free market being bent a bit.
0 Replies
 
Richard Saunders
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 07:48 pm
realjohnboy wrote:
Just to bump this thread up to the top for a day or so.

It ticks me off to hear each month that inflation EXCLUDING THE VOLATILE FOOD AND FUEL SECTORS is always tame. Every month. Everything is doing just fine.
Everything is fine as long as you don't have to drive or eat.

But what got me riled today was hearing that, while gas prices have settled down to around $3.00/gallon, we should expect milk prices to hit close to a record price of $3.50/gallon. There are a number of factors in play. Drought in Austalia has reduced milk supply. Corn prices are at near record highs as more of that product is going into fuel production. The demand from the Chinese market for dairy products is increasing dramatically, despite the fact that the exchange rate between the yuan and the dollar makes imported goods to China more expensive.

It is no wonder to me that that there is a negative expectation ahead as pointed out in the graph above.


The biggest contributor to inflation is the fact that the country is making up more money... they dont talk about it.. but its the real culprit...the govt borrows from the federal reserve and they make up more money and there you go.. when that money gets filtered down to you and I all the prices have gone up... its a hidden tax.. its not by chance. but the effects dont get felt immediately so by that time theres always a drought to blame or greedy arabs..e tc..
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jun, 2007 08:56 pm
Richard S, Good observation. I've been saying the same thing on many a2k threads. It's the over supply of US currency that's the cause of inflation.

All that borrowing and spending by the feds and the consumers must be paid back in the future with future goods and services yet to be produced. There's nothing else to back up those "notes." Isn't confidence that all will be paid sometime in the future a wonderful thing?

Don't forget that all those borrowed funds must be paid back with something we call "interest." That alone adds to inflation.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 07:53 am
Invest your money into real estate, imposter and saunders. They can't manufacture more land.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 09:38 am
We once owned income property, but sold when we quit using our condo at Lake Tahoe and a duplex when I retired. I wanted to free myself from "managing" anything in retirement.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 06:07 pm
okie wrote:
Invest your money into real estate. They can't manufacture more land.


I respectfully disagree with you, okie. "They" can invent more land. In New Mexico and Arizona and Nevada, with sprawling developments without the resources (like water) to sustain them. They can build on the sides of mountains in California. They can cut down forests so that someone can have an acre or so of manicured lawn instead. "They" can make land.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 06:44 pm
I've flown over the US a few times, and have seen miles of empty land.

If man can build an oasis in Las Vegas, there isn't too much where housing development could be stopped.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 07:03 pm
Here is an interesting piece about the economy and peoples feelings about it...

http://www.reason.com/news/show/121097.html

Quote:
Americans have many reasons for gloom. The war in Iraq has yet to turn around, we can't agree on a solution for illegal immigration, and Lindsay Lohan isn't cute anymore. We also have one reason to be happy: the economy. But right now, we're in the middle of a good funk, and we don't want to let any sunshine spoil it.


Read the rest of the piece.
You may not agree with the writers conclusions,but his logic is interesting.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jun, 2007 09:14 pm
I think the article is quite reasonable. Perception is reality for alot of people when it comes to the economy, and the press is not particularly optimistic right now because their guy isn't president, so that influences alot of popular opinion. if you ask people how they are doing, many will say good, but they think everyone else isn't.

I would bet that if Hillary becomes president, economic news will be trumpeted as improving and great, even though the fundamental conditions are about the same.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 09:18 pm
BIS warns of Great Depression dangers from credit spree
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 9:02am BST 25/06/2007

The Bank for International Settlements, the world's most prestigious financial body, has warned that years of loose monetary policy has fuelled a dangerous credit bubble, leaving the global economy more vulnerable to another 1930s-style slump than generally understood.

"Virtually nobody foresaw the Great Depression of the 1930s, or the crises which affected Japan and Southeast Asia in the early and late 1990s. In fact, each downturn was preceded by a period of non-inflationary growth exuberant enough to lead many commentators to suggest that a 'new era' had arrived", said the bank.

The BIS, the ultimate bank of central bankers, pointed to a confluence a worrying signs, citing mass issuance of new-fangled credit instruments, soaring levels of household debt, extreme appetite for risk shown by investors, and entrenched imbalances in the world currency system.

advertisement"Behind each set of concerns lurks the common factor of highly accommodating financial conditions. Tail events affecting the global economy might at some point have much higher costs than is commonly supposed," it said.

The BIS said China may have repeated the disastrous errors made by Japan in the 1980s when Tokyo let rip with excess liquidity.

"The Chinese economy seems to be demonstrating very similar, disquieting symptoms," it said, citing ballooning credit, an asset boom, and "massive investments" in heavy industry.

Some 40pc of China's state-owned enterprises are loss-making, exposing the banking system to likely stress in a downturn.

It said China's growth was "unstable, unbalance, uncoordinated and unsustainable", borrowing a line from Chinese premier Wen Jiabao

In a thinly-veiled rebuke to the US Federal Reserve, the BIS said central banks were starting to doubt the wisdom of letting asset bubbles build up on the assumption that they could safely be "cleaned up" afterwards - which was more or less the strategy pursued by former Fed chief Alan Greenspan after the dotcom bust.

It said this approach had failed in the US in 1930 and in Japan in 1991 because excess debt and investment build up in the boom years had suffocating effects.

While cutting interest rates in such a crisis may help, it has the effect of transferring wealth from creditors to debtors and "sowing the seeds for more serious problems further ahead."

The bank said it was far from clear whether the US would be able to shrug off the consequences of its latest imbalances, citing a current account deficit running at 6.5pc of GDP, a rise in US external liabilities by over $4 trillion from 2001 to 2005, and an unprecedented drop in the savings rate. "The dollar clearly remains vulnerable to a sudden loss of private sector confidence," it said.

The BIS said last year's record issuance of $470bn in collateralized debt obligations (CDO), and a further $524bn in "synthetic" CDOs had effectively opened the lending taps even further. "Mortgage credit has become more available and on easier terms to borrowers almost everywhere. Only in recent months has the downside become more apparent," it said.

CDO's are bond-like packages of mortgages and other forms of debt. The BIS said banks transfer the exposure to buyers of the securities, giving them little incentive to assess risk or carry out due diligence.


Mergers and takeovers reached $4.1 trillion worldwide last year.

Leveraged buy-outs touched $753bn, with an average debt/cash flow ratio hitting a record 5.4.

"Sooner or later the credit cycle will turn and default rates will begin to rise," said the bank.

"The levels of leverage employed in private equity transactions have raised questions about their longer-term sustainability. The strategy depends on the availability of cheap funding," it said.

That may not last much longer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/06/24/cnbis124.xml
0 Replies
 
Richard Saunders
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 09:45 pm
xingu wrote:
BIS warns of Great Depression dangers from credit spree
By Ambrose Evans-Pritchard
Last Updated: 9:02am BST 25/06/2007

The Bank for International Settlements, the world's most prestigious financial body, has warned that years of loose monetary policy has fuelled a dangerous credit bubble, leaving the global economy more vulnerable to another 1930s-style slump than generally understood.

"Virtually nobody foresaw the Great Depression of the 1930s, or the crises which affected Japan and Southeast Asia in the early and late 1990s. In fact, each downturn was preceded by a period of non-inflationary growth exuberant enough to lead many commentators to suggest that a 'new era' had arrived", said the bank.

The BIS, the ultimate bank of central bankers, pointed to a confluence a worrying signs, citing mass issuance of new-fangled credit instruments, soaring levels of household debt, extreme appetite for risk shown by investors, and entrenched imbalances in the world currency system.

advertisement"Behind each set of concerns lurks the common factor of highly accommodating financial conditions. Tail events affecting the global economy might at some point have much higher costs than is commonly supposed," it said.

The BIS said China may have repeated the disastrous errors made by Japan in the 1980s when Tokyo let rip with excess liquidity.

"The Chinese economy seems to be demonstrating very similar, disquieting symptoms," it said, citing ballooning credit, an asset boom, and "massive investments" in heavy industry.

Some 40pc of China's state-owned enterprises are loss-making, exposing the banking system to likely stress in a downturn.

It said China's growth was "unstable, unbalance, uncoordinated and unsustainable", borrowing a line from Chinese premier Wen Jiabao

In a thinly-veiled rebuke to the US Federal Reserve, the BIS said central banks were starting to doubt the wisdom of letting asset bubbles build up on the assumption that they could safely be "cleaned up" afterwards - which was more or less the strategy pursued by former Fed chief Alan Greenspan after the dotcom bust.

It said this approach had failed in the US in 1930 and in Japan in 1991 because excess debt and investment build up in the boom years had suffocating effects.

While cutting interest rates in such a crisis may help, it has the effect of transferring wealth from creditors to debtors and "sowing the seeds for more serious problems further ahead."

The bank said it was far from clear whether the US would be able to shrug off the consequences of its latest imbalances, citing a current account deficit running at 6.5pc of GDP, a rise in US external liabilities by over $4 trillion from 2001 to 2005, and an unprecedented drop in the savings rate. "The dollar clearly remains vulnerable to a sudden loss of private sector confidence," it said.

The BIS said last year's record issuance of $470bn in collateralized debt obligations (CDO), and a further $524bn in "synthetic" CDOs had effectively opened the lending taps even further. "Mortgage credit has become more available and on easier terms to borrowers almost everywhere. Only in recent months has the downside become more apparent," it said.

CDO's are bond-like packages of mortgages and other forms of debt. The BIS said banks transfer the exposure to buyers of the securities, giving them little incentive to assess risk or carry out due diligence.


Mergers and takeovers reached $4.1 trillion worldwide last year.

Leveraged buy-outs touched $753bn, with an average debt/cash flow ratio hitting a record 5.4.

"Sooner or later the credit cycle will turn and default rates will begin to rise," said the bank.

"The levels of leverage employed in private equity transactions have raised questions about their longer-term sustainability. The strategy depends on the availability of cheap funding," it said.

That may not last much longer.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2007/06/24/cnbis124.xml


What a load of horseshit.. The BIS.. The Central Bank of the Central Banks is going to warn everybody about a potential depression caused by their own Central Banks...

Anybody else reading this??

The Central Banks cause all the currency bubbles all over the world and now theyre gonna WARN us..

Call Your Congressman tell him to support:

H.R.2755
Title: To abolish the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System and the Federal reserve banks, to repeal the Federal Reserve Act, and for other purposes.
Sponsor: Rep Paul, Ron [TX-14] (introduced 6/15/2007)



Its time to end this utter nonsense. And time to stop taxation of the people through inflation.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Jun, 2007 10:50 pm
Richard Saunders reads this information correctly; the feds are a bunch of jokers playing the public like a yo-yo with their "reports" about inflation and interest rates.

The biggest problem is the support these jokers get from the financial pundits who "analyze" the effects of the quarter point adjustments to control inflation, bond prices, and the stock market that is junk art - it's not science folks.

All one needs to do is calculate how the cost of health insurance, fuel, housing, and food has affected their standard of living, and compare that to the quarter point interest rate "adjustments."

Did you do the math? Which has more impact? Yeah, right.
0 Replies
 
xingu
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 02:41 am
What worries me most about this economy under Bush is the hugh debt we're incurring. Somewhere down the road I'm afraid this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.
0 Replies
 
Richard Saunders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 07:33 am
xingu wrote:
What worries me most about this economy under Bush is the hugh debt we're incurring. Somewhere down the road I'm afraid this is going to come back and bite us in the ass.


Its already biting us in the ass.. Like I said.. its why gasoline is $3 a gallon, etc... The federal reserve is responsible for most of this debt.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 08:48 pm
Using the price of gasoline as an indicator of the economy is a poor one, Saunders. Look at the price of gasoline in other countries and $3 looks pretty cheap compared to most.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:49 pm
I rarely agree with okie, but he's right on this score; just gas prices is not the culprit. We must look at all the price increases in tandem that affect our lives; that includes the increased prices of homes, fuel (includes heating and cooling your home), health insurance, food, and "movies."

Put together, they do affect home budgets when salary increases do not keep up with the cost of living. That's one of the reasons why seven million more American are living without health insurance; a major budget-buster for the middle class family.
0 Replies
 
Richard Saunders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 Jul, 2007 09:53 pm
okie wrote:
Using the price of gasoline as an indicator of the economy is a poor one, Saunders. Look at the price of gasoline in other countries and $3 looks pretty cheap compared to most.


Im using it as an indicator of inflation.
0 Replies
 
 

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