114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:09 pm
@H2O MAN,
Quote:
The News, a Pakistani daily, reported recently that 60 strikes since early 2006 had killed 687 civilians and only 14 al-Qaeda leaders, a ratio few Pakistanis would find acceptable. The campaign, in fact, may be contributing to a swelling of anti-American sentiment in Pakistan and weakening the fragile government of President Asif Ali Zardari.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1900248,00.html


Who was President in 2006 Squirt?


http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2008/1222/p99s01-duts.html

And wiki lists those killed by the attacks starting in 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:12 pm
@georgeob1,
The figures are for TOTAL Federal revenues.

What does state taxes have to do with eliminating the Federal deficit? Nothing that I can see other than you are attempting a red herring.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:31 pm
@parados,
The subject was the "tax burden".
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:36 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

The figures are for TOTAL Federal revenues.

What does state taxes have to do with eliminating the Federal deficit? Nothing that I can see other than you are attempting a red herring.


It's their favorite circular argument; the 'high Federal tax rate' (which is historically low) is used as an argument to justify low State taxes, and high State tax rates are used to justify lower Federal tax rates.

Any discussion of historical tax burden is incomplete without pointing out that there have been MANY and various tax shelters and tax dodges invented and utilized over the years. Whatever the listed burdens are, we know that the actual burdens are generally far lower.

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 06:57 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Not really circular at all. State tax rates (income and sales) have been rising steadily for decades - nothing circular there. Increasingly the Federal Government is legislating programs with Federal appropriations that require companion State financing. Medicaid is a prominent example, as are some of the new provisions of Obamacare. The Medicare tax is now a flat 2% (or so) tax on all earned income with no upper limit. The "tax dodges" that Cyclo refers to are increasingly remote. Indeed, now that most of the normal deductions are indexed to AGI, they arent worth as much either. The AMT (both State and Federal) is another tax that, with little fanfare, increases every year.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 07:11 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Not really circular at all. State tax rates (income and sales) have been rising steadily for decades - nothing circular there. I

And your evidence for that is what?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 07:13 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

The subject was the "tax burden".

That's interesting because I can only find comments on the high tax rates of the Federal government in any comments prior to my posting the taxation as percent of GDP.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 07:48 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Quote:
The News, a Pakistani daily, reported recently that 60 strikes since early 2006 had killed 687 civilians and only 14 al-Qaeda leaders, a ratio few Pakistanis would find acceptable. The campaign, in fact, may be contributing to a swelling of anti-American sentiment in Pakistan and weakening the fragile government of President Asif Ali Zardari.

http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,1900248,00.html


Who was President in 2006 Squirt?
.....

Parados, here are the statistics on drone attacks, which show the distinct majority has been overseen by Obama in the last couple of years. In fact, there have been 144 attacks, or about 77% of the total 187 drone attacks since 2004, done in the past 2 years under Obama, accounting for about 78% of all the deaths there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan
Year ....................... attacks....................Total killed
2005...................... 2 ....................... .... 7
2006...................... 2 .......................... 23
2007...................... 4 ....................... . 74
2008 ...................... 34....................... 296
2009...................... 53 ....................... 709
2010 ..................... 91 ...................... 760
Total ....................187 ..................... 1,884
parados
 
  2  
Reply Thu 28 Oct, 2010 09:08 pm
@okie,
But who started it okie? That was the original question.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 05:39 am
Their favorite argument is to blame Bush.


Pathetic Obama democrats.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 08:03 am
@H2O MAN,
Facts aren't really blame squirt. It's just a fact.

Fact - Bush used drones in Pakistan and was the first to authorize their use there.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 09:46 am
@parados,
Bill Clinton did authorize the use of cruise missiles.
While those arent drones, he still authorized their use in an attack.

So, if you really want to split hairs, you could say that he started it.
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 10:36 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Any discussion of historical tax burden is incomplete without pointing out that there have been MANY and various tax shelters and tax dodges invented and utilized over the years.


And they all should be eliminated, because remember, according to the VP, paying higher taxes is the "patriotic" thing to do.

Unless you are the DNC and those taxes are property taxes on an exclusive property you own in Washington DC.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dnc-and-dncs-private-dinner-club-penalized-for-late-taxes-16-times-in-7-years-pjm-exclusive/
parados
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 10:38 am
@mysteryman,
In Pakistan? Really? When was that MM?
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 10:40 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Any discussion of historical tax burden is incomplete without pointing out that there have been MANY and various tax shelters and tax dodges invented and utilized over the years.


And they all should be eliminated, because remember, according to the VP, paying higher taxes is the "patriotic" thing to do.


Yes, and that's correct. I agree with this. Ponying up your share to support the nation we all live in IS patriotic, and when you're rich, your share is bigger. Not hard to figure out.

Quote:
Unless you are the DNC and those taxes are property taxes on an exclusive property you own in Washington DC.

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/dnc-and-dncs-private-dinner-club-penalized-for-late-taxes-16-times-in-7-years-pjm-exclusive/


No, it's wrong for them too. You did see that they got fined for screwing up their taxes, and paid those fines, right?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 10:43 am
@parados,
Poor pitiful parasite.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 11:32 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

But who started it okie? That was the original question.

How come you don't apply the same line of reasoning with home loans, parados? That is exactly what I think about the Community Reinvestment Act. It started the pattern of irresponsible home loan behavior in the industry by mandating, encouraging, and enabling banks to practice unsound loan practices, until the entire house of cards began to crumble. The industry was a house of cards because it was built upon a very flawed structure, that of the government mandating loans in high risk areas and with high risk borrowers, and also buying those loans from the banks that followed their example.

And be serious about the missile or drone attacks, Obama has been president for almost two years, and it is his responsibility to either carry on those attacks or stop them. He cannot continue to blame everything on Bush, and neither can you.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 11:37 am
@okie,
Quote:
t started the pattern of irresponsible home loan behavior in the industry by mandating, encouraging, and enabling banks to practice unsound loan practices, until the entire house of cards began to crumble.


NO, it didn't. At all. As I pointed out to you in the other thread, for a loan to qualify to be a CRA loan, you couldn't have the exotic loans that got us into the foreclosure mess: no alt-a mortgages, no interest-only mortgages, nothing. And many if not most of the houses that have been foreclosed on are in wealthier or middle-class areas, NOT the communities that the CRA was designed to service.

Let's examine the facts:
Quote:

Relation to 2008 financial crisis
See also: Subprime mortgage crisis and Global financial crisis of 2008–2009

Some economists, politicians and other commentators[who?] have charged that the CRA contributed in part to the 2008 financial crisis by encouraging banks to make unsafe loans. Economists, including those from the Federal Reserve and the FDIC, dispute this contention. The Federal Reserve, having examined the evidence, holds that empirical research has not validated any relationship between the CRA and the 2008 financial crisis.[100] At the FDIC, Chair Sheila Bair delivered remarks noting that the majority of subprime loans originated from lenders not regulated by the CRA, calling it a "scapegoat" and declaring it "NOT guilty."[101]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act#Relation_to_2008_financial_crisis

More from that same source:

Quote:
Some legal and financial experts note that CRA regulated loans tend to be safe and profitable, and that subprime excesses came mainly from institutions not regulated by the CRA. In the February 2008 House hearing, law professor Michael S. Barr, a Treasury Department official under President Clinton,[67][113] stated that a Federal Reserve survey showed that affected institutions considered CRA loans profitable and not overly risky. He noted that approximately 50% of the subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA, and another 25% to 30% came from only partially CRA regulated bank subsidiaries and affiliates. Barr noted that institutions fully regulated by CRA made "perhaps one in four" sub-prime loans, and that "the worst and most widespread abuses occurred in the institutions with the least federal oversight".[114] According to Janet L. Yellen, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, independent mortgage companies made risky "high-priced loans" at more than twice the rate of the banks and thrifts; most CRA loans were responsibly made, and were not the higher-priced loans that have contributed to the current crisis.[115] A 2008 study by Traiger & Hinckley LLP, a law firm that counsels financial institutions on CRA compliance, found that CRA regulated institutions were less likely to make subprime loans, and when they did the interest rates were lower. CRA banks were also half as likely to resell the loans.[116] Emre Ergungor of the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland found that there was no statistical difference in foreclosure rates between regulated and less-regulated banks, although a local bank presence resulted in fewer foreclosures.[117]


This is at least the second time that I've pointed this fact out to you. You failed to respond to the facts the first time; will you have the guts to do so now?

Quote:
The industry was a house of cards because it was built upon a very flawed structure, that of the government mandating loans in high risk areas and with high risk borrowers, and also buying those loans from the banks that followed their example.


This is factually untrue and has NOTHING to do with the CRA or the financial crisis. You are totally wrong. Do you deny this fact? If so, present your evidence to show that you are correct; not your opinion, evidence.

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 12:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It isn't just CRA, cyclops. I think the blame is largely due to Fannie and Freddie, that would buy high risk loan packages from banks. So the banks not only took that as a guarantee for their loaning, but also began to buy and sell bundles between them. In 2009, Fannie and Freddie bought or guaranteed about 3/4 of all home loans, and you claim they are an innocent bystander? That is frankly silly. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon, without them examining just how sound the bandwagon was until it was too late. Comparing this to the domino effect, I think the weak or unstable dominos that caused the failures to start were Fannie and Freddie.

It isn't just the loans that were issued by Fannie and Freddie, but the fact that they would buy subprime loans. By doing so, they enabled and encouraged other banks to engage in those practices. Anytime you have government intervention into private markets, you will reap unintended consequences. I don't know how long it will take for you to face this fact?

Read the stark reality of it, cyclops:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-06-13/fannie-freddie-fix-expands-to-160-billion-with-worst-case-at-1-trillion.html
"The cost of fixing Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the mortgage companies that last year bought or guaranteed three-quarters of all U.S. home loans, will be at least $160 billion and could grow to as much as $1 trillion after the biggest bailout in American history."
okie
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 29 Oct, 2010 12:14 pm
@okie,
And the above is not all of the story. There still remains the fact that Obama's friend Franklin Raines is one example of somebody cooking the books at Fannie Mae, and to add insult to injury, he was taking the taxpayers for 90 million personally. To this day, nothing is done, and in fact Obama referred to him as a trusted confidante of his to get advice about the economy during his campaign a couple of years ago.
0 Replies
 
 

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