114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 07:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
More OD Fairy Tales from you, Cyclo.

1. The numbers I provided count total (i.e., all) federal receipts, total (i.e., all) federal outlays, and their total (i.e., all) surpluses or deficits.
2. The OD have not been putting their total expenses on budget--they do not presently have a lawfully adopted budget.
3. If the Democrats inherited any deficit, it was the FY 2007 deficit--the last of the Republican budget yearss. That deficit was the lowest in five years, and the fourth straight decline in deficit spending.
Quote:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Year………FEDERAL DEFICITS
1980.......$0.074 trillion [CARTER]
1988….….$0.155 trillion [REAGAN]
1992........$0.291trillion [BUSH41]
2000.......SURPLUS $0.236 trillion [CLINTON]
2008.......$0.410 trillion [BUSH43]
2010 (June)........$0.160 trillion [OBAMA]


0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 07:34 pm
@talk72000,
Bush43 added his annual deficits to the debt he inherited in 2001. Likewise, Obama will add his annual dificits to the debt he inherited in 2009 from Bush43.

The deficits Obama is projected to add in 4 years to the debt that he inherited from his predecessor, is far greater than the total deficits Bush43 added in 8 years to the debt from his predecessor.
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 07:39 pm
@ican711nm,
From your figures Raygun, Bush I and Bush II added a lot more for the jumps from them are greater.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 07:42 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The higher tax rates for all those folks wealthier than I am, will affect the standard of living of all those folks who are just as wealthier as I am, because the economy will enter an additional recession.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 07:47 pm
@talk72000,
The deficits I posted are for individual years, not for the entire terms of the presidents mentioned. Obama is projected to add far more to the debt than has either Bush.

Study the link I posted to really understand the data I posted.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf
Richy22
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 08:27 pm
@ican711nm,
Who really knows where its heading... http://www.dailyjobcuts.com

It just sucks to see how everyone , someway or another is getting hurt by this recession. We really need to get some jobs back.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 09:20 pm
@Richy22,
With CEOs making 1,000 times what the average worker makes, the jobs are going to stay right where they are.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Jul, 2010 10:38 pm
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
Yeah, but wait until all the seniors discover that the dividend payments from their mutual funds will be taxed at 36% instead of 15.

Not seniors who have their mutual funds in 401Ks or tax-free munis. And not seniors who make less than $250,000 a year. The rest of "all the seniors" is negligible, and can well afford the repeal of their tax cut.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 06:47 am
@Thomas,
401Ks are a fairly recent invention. There are many seniors who live off of the dividend income from mutual funds that aren't tax deferred. I don't think your $250,000 is correct. The rate for anyone with an income over $250,000 is 39.6%

From the WSJ
Quote:
If Congress takes no action, the top rate on long-term capital gains will remain 15% in 2010, but will automatically rise to 20% in 2011. The top rate on dividends is scheduled to rise to 39.6% in 2011.


If Congress takes no action, the top rate on long-term capital gains will remain 15% in 2010, but will automatically rise to 20% in 2011. The top rate on dividends is scheduled to rise to 39.6% in 2011. There's a good tablehere(pdf) that explains it much better than I can. 2011 is at the bottom of the file. LTCG rates jump from a max of 15% to 20%. STCG is taxed at the same marginal rate as income which reverts to a max of 39.6%.

edit: I was referring to the point made in the bottom box of this post, which apparently makes short work of a complicated scenario.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 07:05 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

401Ks are a fairly recent invention. There are many seniors who live off of the dividend income from mutual funds that aren't tax deferred. I don't think your $250,000 is correct. The rate for anyone with an income over $250,000 is 39.6%

From the WSJ
Quote:
If Congress takes no action, the top rate on long-term capital gains will remain 15% in 2010, but will automatically rise to 20% in 2011. The top rate on dividends is scheduled to rise to 39.6% in 2011.

But no Democratic leader wants to pursue the option of Congress doing nothing. From Reid to Pelosi to Obama, they agree to keep the Bush tax cuts for people who make less than X. There are different numeric values of X floating around, but the most common ones are $200k for individuals and $250k for families. That's not much tax revenue lost to Congress, because the lion's share of dividends and capital gains goes to people about any reasonably expected value of X. But the anxiety spurned in the conservative press, that Congress is going to seize the retirement money of regular seniors, is simply irrational.

PS: I wouldn't consider The Tax Foundation a neutral source. I would consider them a conservative advocacy group. Its funding comes mainly from the Koch Foundation and the Earhart foundation, each founded by a billionaire with a conservative or libertarian mission.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 07:30 am
@Thomas,
Again... going back the this post which came from this source, I said that I think it is likely that Congress will do nothing before they go home to campaign and I agree with the sentiment that they'd rather not have it be one of the most recent votes before the election. Then the question becomes one of getting it done before the end of the year (unlikely) or trying to make it retroactive to the beginning of the year after the fact (more likely), but then it will be a much different Congress (we assume).

What.... you don't like libertarians all of a sudden? I never looked at the site. Google "capital gains tax rate 2011" and the pdf file is the first hit. Are you saying the table is biased?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 07:30 am
@JPB,
Dividends will return to being taxed as regular income. That means hardly anyone that is retired will see all their dividends taxed at the 36%.

Less than 5% of US households pay the highest income tax rate when it reverts. Less than 10% will pay in the highest 2 rates.

Breakout of income by returns as %

2002 tax rates that will come back

Most retired will not be paying in the top brackets.
Using this calculator it shows the number of 64-75 people earning more than $150,000 would be about 1% of the total earners.

http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/06/estimating-us-distribution-of-income-by.html

*edit* added missing link
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 07:42 am
@parados,
Quote:
That means hardly anyone that is retired will see all their dividends taxed at the 36%.


I see that now, thanks. I was taking a media report and giving it more credence than I should have.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 08:06 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

GM, the company, isn't tied to the worthless stock.

GM is currently making a profit.


Glad to hear it. I don't like taxpayers being in the automotive industry any longer than necessary and would love them to return to profitability and become a publicly held company again which, apparently, they plan on doing later this year. I like being in the sub-prime loan business even less.

Quote:
DETROIT — General Motors Co. will buy AmeriCredit Corp. for $3.5 billion, a deal that allows the automaker to expand loans to customers with poor credit and offer more leases, key areas where GM must grow to accelerate its car sales.

But the acquisition, announced Thursday, also means that GM, which is 61 percent owned by the U.S. government, is getting back into the business of making risky loans. AmeriCredit is an independent auto financing company that already works with about 4,000 GM dealers.

GM executives have said for months that they were missing sales opportunities due to lack of credit for lease deals and financing for subprime buyers, those with credit scores below 620 on a 300-to-850-point scale. About 40 percent of U.S. customers have below prime credit scores, said Chris Liddell, GM's chief financial officer.

"Clearly there's an opportunity to bring more people into our showrooms and help them with finance," he said.

snip

Liddell said the acquisition is a helpful, but not essential for GM's planned public stock offering. The company plans to sell stock to the public, perhaps in the fourth quarter. The sale would help the government get rid of at least part of its ownership stake in the company.

"I'll describe it as another useful building block in the foundation for the IPO," Liddell said. Source
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:36 am
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

The higher tax rates for all those folks wealthier than I am, will affect the standard of living of all those folks who are just as wealthier as I am, because the economy will enter an additional recession.


No, it won't. There's no evidence that raising taxes causes an economy to enter a recession.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 09:42 am
Krugman today -

Quote:
Op-Ed Columnist
Addicted to Bush
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: July 22, 2010

For a couple of years, it was the love that dared not speak his name. In 2008, Republican candidates hardly ever mentioned the president still sitting in the White House. After the election, the G.O.P. did its best to shout down all talk about how we got into the mess we’re in, insisting that we needed to look forward, not back. And many in the news media played along, acting as if it was somehow uncouth for Democrats even to mention the Bush era and its legacy.

The truth, however, is that the only problem Republicans ever had with George W. Bush was his low approval rating. They always loved his policies and his governing style — and they want them back. In recent weeks, G.O.P. leaders have come out for a complete return to the Bush agenda, including tax breaks for the rich and financial deregulation. They’ve even resurrected the plan to cut future Social Security benefits.

But they have a problem: how can they embrace President Bush’s policies, given his record? After all, Mr. Bush’s two signature initiatives were tax cuts and the invasion of Iraq; both, in the eyes of the public, were abject failures. Tax cuts never yielded the promised prosperity, but along with other policies — especially the unfunded war in Iraq — they converted a budget surplus into a persistent deficit. Meanwhile, the W.M.D. we invaded Iraq to eliminate turned out not to exist, and by 2008 a majority of the public believed not just that the invasion was a mistake but that the Bush administration deliberately misled the nation into war. What’s a Republican to do?

You know the answer. There’s now a concerted effort under way to rehabilitate Mr. Bush’s image on at least three fronts: the economy, the deficit and the war.

On the economy: Last week Mitch McConnell, the Senate minority leader, declared that “there’s no evidence whatsoever that the Bush tax cuts actually diminished revenue. They increased revenue, because of the vibrancy of these tax cuts in the economy.” So now the word is that the Bush-era economy was characterized by “vibrancy.”

I guess it depends on the meaning of the word “vibrant.” The actual record of the Bush years was (i) two and half years of declining employment, followed by (ii) four and a half years of modest job growth, at a pace significantly below the eight-year average under Bill Clinton, followed by (iii) a year of economic catastrophe. In 2007, at the height of the “Bush boom,” such as it was, median household income, adjusted for inflation, was still lower than it had been in 2000.

But the Bush apologists hope that you won’t remember all that. And they also have a theory, which I’ve been hearing more and more — namely, that President Obama, though not yet in office or even elected, caused the 2008 slump. You see, people were worried in advance about his future policies, and that’s what caused the economy to tank. Seriously.

On the deficit: Republicans are now claiming that the Bush administration was actually a paragon of fiscal responsibility, and that the deficit is Mr. Obama’s fault. “The last year of the Bush administration,” said Mr. McConnell recently, “the deficit as a percentage of gross domestic product was 3.2 percent, well within the range of what most economists think is manageable. A year and a half later, it’s almost 10 percent.”

But that 3.2 percent figure, it turns out, is for fiscal 2008 — which wasn’t the last year of the Bush administration, because it ended in September of 2008. In other words, it ended just as the failure of Lehman Brothers — on Mr. Bush’s watch — was triggering a broad financial and economic collapse. This collapse caused the deficit to soar: By the first quarter of 2009 — with only a trickle of stimulus funds flowing — federal borrowing had already reached almost 9 percent of G.D.P. To some of us, this says that the economic crisis that began under Mr. Bush is responsible for the great bulk of our current deficit. But the Republican Party is having none of it.

Finally, on the war: For most Americans, the whole debate about the war is old if painful news — but not for those obsessed with refurbishing the Bush image. Karl Rove now claims that his biggest mistake was letting Democrats get away with the “shameful” claim that the Bush administration hyped the case for invading Iraq. Let the whitewashing begin!

Again, Republicans aren’t trying to rescue George W. Bush’s reputation for sentimental reasons; they’re trying to clear the way for a return to Bush policies. And this carries a message for anyone hoping that the next time Republicans are in power, they’ll behave differently. If you believe that they’ve learned something — say, about fiscal prudence or the importance of effective regulation — you’re kidding yourself. You might as well face it: they’re addicted to Bush.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/23/opinion/23krugman.html?_r=3&ref=opinion

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:16 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Yep, cyclops' favorite producer of unbaised opinions, the liberal rag New York Times and Democrat apologist Krugman that calls himself an economist.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:17 am
@okie,
okie wrote:

Yep, cyclops' favorite producer of unbaised opinions, the liberal rag New York Times and Democrat apologist Krugman that calls himself an economist.


Let's see, Krugman vs. Okie... who is the better economist, who knows more about money and how the economy works in America?

Hmm. It's a tough choice, isn't it? Rolling Eyes

No, it's not a tough call. The guy does it for a living, whereas you have no training whatsoever and don't know **** about economics. So why should we believe you over him?

Cycloptichorn
okie
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:30 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Well, at least I have learned as a successful business owner now for over 25 years, that taxes do affect my business and how I run it. If Krugman hasn't learned that yet, yes, I am more astute in regard to the economy. Some of this stuff is not rocket science, cyclops, it is simple math. By the way, I am about to finish the book by Alan Greenspan, and I have also read Thomas Sowell's book on the Basics of the Economy, and both have more sense than Krugman apparently does, that is if he agrees with most of what you post here, cyclops. To be totally honest, I am not real familiar with Krugman, but I have gained the impression that he is an apologist for Democrats, primarily, over that of being a real astute economist.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 23 Jul, 2010 11:36 am
@okie,
Quote:
By the way, I am about to finish the book by Alan Greenspan, and I have also read Thomas Sowell's book on the Basics of the Economy, and both have more sense than Krugman apparently does, that is if he agrees with most of what you post here, cyclops.


Oh, so I suppose you agree with Greenspan that the Bush tax cuts should expire, then?

Quote:

Greenspan: Bush tax cuts should expire
By Jordan Fabian - 07/15/10 04:05 PM ET

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said Thursday that President George W. Bush's tax cuts should be allowed to expire because of the ballooning budget deficit.

"I think they should follow the law and let them lapse. … Taxes go up," he told Bloomberg television in an interview to air Friday. "The problem is, unless we start to come to grips with this long-term outlook we're going to have major problems. I think we misunderstand the momentum of this deficit going forward."


You're totally blown on this issue, Okie.

Cycloptichorn
 

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