Where is the US economy headed?

@okie,

Quote:

There is no doubt that government research or government funded research accomplishes a great deal, but what I am pointing out is that private enterprise is I think a bigger driver of progress, without question

You are jumping to a conclusion here based on very little data. Much of what is researched by government and University labs doesn't lead to products; it leads to dead ends. It's important to have this dead-end research, however, to know our limitations, and what can't be done.

My point isn't that good science and innovation doesn't go on privately; only that the combination of public-private research has allowed us to skyrocket forth in the last century, and it's no good knocking the government end of it.

Cycloptichorn

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@Cycloptichorn,

I don't see any basic disagreement here, except that I see private or individual / company research has been the primary driver, as allowed by free markets, vs your apparent belief or ci's apparent belief that government is the primary driver. I wonder if it is no coincidence that scientific progress has occurred in the last few hundred years - because of more practice of free markets, private property rights, and individualism, vs age old socialistic systems? I realize this is bordering on speculation, but I think it is a very interesting subject.

To expand on a little speculation, some people will accuse me of running on about a tangent here, but I have done alot of traveling around the west, including indian reservations, and it has led me to think that possibly the primary reason why some tribes had stayed more primitive was their socialistic or communistic type of lifestyles. That is changing some now I think, but it was a communal mindset, without private property ownership, etc., and decisions were made communally, such as via the Navajo Chapter Houses. I am not criticizing it, that is a culture, I am only making an observation. After all, I also find it interesting that some of the root stock of these peoples come from Asia, so the degree of intelligence and potential industrialization given the right system to live under - would have been just as great as has occurred in Asia. Look at the great intelligence and innovation that have come out of Japan for example. Perhaps this is why some college professors teach that the white Europeans brought an evil mindset to America, and perhaps why many diehard environmentalists oppose modernization, capitalism, and industrial progress, they would rather return to a more aboriginal way of life? I think this also helps explain why environmentalists gravitate toward socialism and communism, as they have an aversion to industrialization and capitalism, or individualism, private property rights, etc.

Go ahead and scoff at my speculation if you wish, but I still find the subject fascinating. As a sidelight to where indians came from, I know of a Vietnamese woman that came to the Four Corners and always got disenchanted when people thought she was a Ute indian. She looked very much like a Ute, or even a Navajo.

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@okie,

okie, South Korea's government's R&D budget for 2009 is $9.4 billion dollars. South Korea's GDP is $1.2 trillion dollars.

You are one ignorant bastard!

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

You are one ignorant bastard!

Why are you being nice today? I think you could be worse. How is your wife faring with you, and your family? I thought some of them are conservative? Do they just ignore you or just play nice and not speak their opinions? I hope you don't talk to them like you do conservatives here?

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@okie,

I meet with my siblings several times a year, but we don't always talk politics or religion. We know where each of us stand, and we don't go on a merry-go-round repeating the same scene over and over.

Not just some of them are conservative; all of them are. I'm the only independent (thinker).

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Good evening. If I can interrupt the discussion about who is the bigger "ignorant bastard:"
The BBC today is reporting that China's holdings of U.S. debt was reduced by 3.1% in June ($25B). That is the biggest liquidation in 9 years. China has been making noises lately about its preference that the U.S. be somehow replaced as the world's favored currency. They fear that the U.S. budget deficit will lead to inflation and then a continuing fall in the value of the dollar.
It should be noted, for context, that in 2008 China increased its holdings of U.S. debt by 52%.
As a total aside, unrelated to anything else, Rasmussen reports today that, after "free admission" to national parks this past weekend, 44% of those polled believe access to parks should always be free.

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@realjohnboy,

We were told by friends recently that seniors could buy a ticket for the national parks for $10/year.

What's interesting about the bonds being held by China is that their holdings are dropping as US citizens have increased their holdings. Interesting dynamics going on, but that also means that consumer spending is suffering, and we need consumers to be spending more to maintain our economy at some level of sustenance. It's no longer going to be 70% of our economy, but we can't continue to reduce our spending for very long. More people will lose their jobs, homes and health insurance.

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@cicerone imposter,

Whip 'em to the shops then ci. Round 'em up these savers and thrifties. March 'em to the checkouts. Make 'em have it.

Who cares what they buy?

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@spendius,

Good post, spendious. I mean that.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

Interesting dynamics going on, but that also means that consumer spending is suffering, and we need consumers to be spending more to maintain our economy at some level of sustenance. It's no longer going to be 70% of our economy, but we can't continue to reduce our spending for very long. More people will lose their jobs, homes and health insurance.

So when we are losing our jobs and working less hours, we are supposed to spend more, that according to ci! LOL!!!!

ci, people will begin to spend more money when they have it, combined with the confidence that they will be able to keep their jobs, etc. Its called confidence and optimism in the economy. People are not spending now because they don't have enough. I know you grow really tired of this, as do other liberals here, but Obama has murdered our confidence in the system, in the free markets, in our companies and other institutions. We do not know what next will be coming down the pike.

It seems to me there has been a little uptick the last month or so, and could continue another month, but come fall and winter, I am not optimistic, I look for another dip, I don't know how severe.

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@cicerone imposter,

If consumer spending (and I did not know the percentage) is not going to be 70% of our economy, what is? Mining, manufacturing, tourism? Maybe the stuff lumped together as financial services. I'm wondering if it is going to be government, which is part of what I call 'taking in each other's laundry.

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@roger,

It's 70% of all the goods and services produced by our economy.

Without consumer spending, factories close, banks don't or can't issue credit, stores close, the transportation industry constricts, people lose their jobs and homes, and what ends up is that the greater percentage of our economy which used to be consumer spending continues to decrease. This spiral weakens our economy further, and almost everybody is impacted.

I went to Fry's Electronics store this morning, and the parking lot which is usually at least half full was almost empty today with only a couple of dozen cars.

Our economy is in big trouble for more people.

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You struck a bit of a nerve there, Roger. I have 20 employees, many of whom are young and making $10/hr. Good people. But they spent thousands upon tens of thousands of dollars getting a perhaps meaningless degree in some major for which there is no market in the American work force.
Why? What are we producing?

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@realjohnboy,

realjohnboy wrote:

You struck a bit of a nerve there, Roger. I have 20 employees, many of whom are young and making $10/hr. Good people. But they spent thousands upon tens of thousands of dollars getting a perhaps meaningless degree in some major for which there is no market in the American work force.
Why? What are we producing?

We need to produce wealth, not trade it until its gone. We need energy, agriculture, minerals, forest products, etc., then basic manufacturing from these natural resources. A service economy will eventually become stagnant and dry up, like a lake without any incoming fresh water.

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So, how's the budget deficit doing these days? Pretty good under Obama?

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@Brandon9000,

The budget deficit is lousy; Obama has been spending deficit money like there's no tomorrow. He should have stuck with the basic necessities rather than expanding so much on social projects that could have waited until our economy started to pick up. This huge deficit will eventually have to be paid back, and it will create a huge handicap for our economy in both inflation and trying to compete in the world marketplace with monopoly money. We will lose our ability at competitive advantage, because we're not the only ones with high tech and biotech scientists and factories.

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@cicerone imposter,

Having regrets about your vote yet?

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@okie,

Why? Because you have a habit of misinterpreting everything? All you have provided in all these threads are your personal opinion without so much as any evidence to prove what you say. As a matter of fact, you have been challenged by the majority of people on most threads, and the only people in your corner are Foxie and ican. That would be a clue to most people that your thinking is way off the norm, but it doesn't seem to phase you one iota, because you are so dense.

CLUE: I do not agree with everything Obama has done, but I still believe he is an intelligent individual who has accomplished much in his life; much more than you ever will.

You keep harping on his rating drop, but he's still above most contemporary presidents after seven months in office. That he is making an effort to help all Americans with his health plan tells me he cares about our country. You, on the other hand, believe he is turning our country into socialism. You don't even know the meaning of that word! Most European countries have universal health care, and they are still capitalistic in their economy. Japan, Cuba, Costa Rica, and many other countries outside of Europe also have universal health care; they are not "going bankrupt."

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From my "Redstate" morning update:

Quote:

Cash For Clunkers: EPIC FAIL
Posted by Brian Faughnan (Profile)
Wednesday, August 19th at 4:07PM EDT

Remember how cash for clunkers was so successful that Congress was forced to triple the size of the program in a hurry? Well, those billions of dollars will go further now that hundreds of New York auto dealers have decided the program is too badly managed to keep participating in:

Hundreds of auto dealers in the New York area have withdrawn from the government’s Cash for Clunkers program, citing delays in getting reimbursed by the government, a dealership group said Wednesday.

The Greater New York Automobile Dealers Association, which represents dealerships in the New York metro area, said about half its 425 members have left the program because they cannot afford to offer more rebates. They’re also worried about getting repaid.

“(The government) needs to move the system forward and they need to start paying these dealers,” said Mark Schienberg, the group’s president. “This is a cash-dependent business…”

Schienberg said the group’s dealers have been repaid for only about 2 percent of the clunkers deals they’ve made so far.

Many dealers have said they are worried they won’t get repaid at all, while others have waited so long to get reimbursed they don’t have the cash to fund any more rebates, Schienberg said.

The problem is not that the federal program is poorly-intentioned, or even that it has an inherent design flaw - at least from the point of view of the car dealers. On the contrary - giving people money to buy cars is exceedingly simple. Unfortunately, the federal government is just too slow and inefficient to respond to the demands of a complex market with hundreds of thousands of actors. Dealers either have to stay out of the program, or accept slow responses, uncertainty about rules, and bureaucratic complexity. That’s simply part of dealing with the government.

At least they can console themselves in the knowledge that at the end of the day, buying or selling a car is not a life or death issue - like say, health care.

The local television news this week and the Albuquerque Journal this morning have been running stories about local dealers--apparently all of them--opting out of the program because they aren't getting paid by the government and they can't afford to keep carrying the large unreimbursed payouts on their books.

This is the same government that many of you want to trust with administering or controlling the entire US healthcare system.

Anybody worried yet?

1 Reply

@Foxfyre,

Another thing it says is to be very careful of programs that were put together on a crash priority basis.

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Where is the US economy headed?

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