114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 05:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
I agree with hawkeye on this one; I don't see how the republicans can garner the will and support for a bailout with taxpayer money. If they support it, they're really not "conservatives" by name or practice.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:18 pm
Which states gain from a bail-out and which lose as some must for the others to gain?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It may pass the House, but it will fail in the Senate.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:29 pm
i'll lift this from wiki :

Quote:
In economics, a bailout is when someone loans or gives capital to a failing business in order to save it from total ruin. [1] [2]

A bailout is a matter of circumstance, so the possible motives behind one are unlimited, though typically the bail-er demands some influence over the company he bailed out. A bailout could be done for mere profit, as when a predatory investor resurrects a foundering company by buying its shares at fire-sale prices; for social improvement, as when, hypothetically speaking, a wealthy philanthropist reinvents an unprofitable fast food company into a non-profit food distribution network; or the bailout of a company might be seen as a necessity in order to prevent greater, socioeconomic failures: For example, the US government assumes transportation to be the backbone of America's general economic fluency, which maintains the nation's geopolitical power. [3] As such, it is the long-held policy of the US government to protect the biggest American companies responsible for transportation--airliners, petrol companies, etc-- from failure through subsidies and low-interest loans, or, in other words, through bailing them out. These companies, among others, are deemed "too big to fail" because their goods and services are considered by the government to be constant universal necessities in maintaining the nation's welfare and often, indirectly, its security.[4] [5]

Emergency-type government bailouts can be controversial. To name an instance in current events, there are debates raging over if and how to bailout the failing auto industry in the United States. Those against it, like pro-free market radio personality Hugh Hewitt, see this bailout as an unacceptable passing-of-the-buck to taxpayers. He has denounced any bailout for the Big Three, arguing that mismanagement caused the companies to fail, and they now deserve to be dismantled organically by the free-market forces so that entrepreneurs may arise from the ashes; that the bailout signals lower business standards for giant companies by incentivizing risk, creating moral hazard through the assurance of safety nets (that others are responsible in paying for) that should not be, but unfortunately are, considered in business equations; and that a bailout promotes centralized bureaucracy by allowing government powers to choose the terms of the bailout. Others, such as John Stewart of The Daily Show, and Nobel Laureate in Economics Jeffrey Sachs [6], have characterized this particular bailout a necessary evil, arguing that the probable incompetence in management of the car companies is insufficient reason to let them fail completely and potentially disturb the current delicate economic state of the United States, since up to three million jobs rest on the solvency of the Big Three and things are bleak enough as it is. In any case, the bones of contention here can be generalized to represent the issues at large, namely the virtues of private enterprise versus those of central planning, and the dangers of a free market's volatility versus the those of socialistic bureaucracy.

Governments around the world have bailed out their nations businesses with some frequency since the early 20th century.

In general, the needs of the entity/entities bailed out are subordinate to the needs of the state.


find full text here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bailout

one might well argue that any bailout runs counter to "free enterprise" .
can one argue that large style unemployment - perhaps even a collapse of societal values - are a price one must be willing to pay to sustain "free enterprise" ?
(would "free enterprise" even survive such a collapse ? i don't think there i a precedent for such a collapse that i can see) .
i think the "good of the nation" must override all other arguments .

i don't see that the big three can simply be "reconstructed" - they are like humpty-dumpty who fell off the wall ...

do we simply "sweep the debris into the gutter" or do we try to rescue the usable parts in some way ?

if the big three are allowed to fail/disappear , other american businesses will find it difficult (perhaps even impossible) to convince the rest of the world that they are NOT part of it , and that they can be trusted to provide industrial leadership and and supply products of value .

the shockwaves from a collapse of the "the three brands" would go around the world and cause even more damage to america - and of course , to the rest of the world .
i can't see any benefits in a total collapse , except an ideological one - and no one has been able to live and prosper on "ideology" yet (it won't even feed a family of four , will it ?)

(this isn't like coca-cola or mcd collapsing - there would still be pepsi ,KFC , burgerking ... ...)

if the big three are allowed "to collapse" america may very well never recover - it would certainly not be the worldpower it still is .
just my two cents canadian of opinion .
you all sleep well !
hbg
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:36 pm
@hamburger,
hbg, Thanks for nut'n. I'm still not seeing the crisis of a failed Detroit auto industry, because there are other car-makers in much better shape with better management and products. The idea that we must "preserve" American companies is an outdated one; we are now and forever a world economy. The simple fact that we are a world economy ensures the survival of capitalism. The only big question that remains is what is the ideal mix of capitalism/socialism that best meets the people's needs and happiness.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 06:55 pm
the four things that nearly everyone agrees must happen for the Big three to have a future is a) cut and update the plants, b)cut product lines, c)cut the dealer side of the cost structure, d) make better product. A-C require the ability to break contracts ....Cutting employee costs and employee head count, thus violate the CBA, and cutting dealerships thus violate contracts with dealers)..... A $15 billion bailout will not allow for violating contracts, so what good is it? Seems like an exercise in pissing money away, not in using money.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 07:57 pm
@hawkeye10,
You got that right! "....not in using money with intelligence."
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 08:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
You are wrong, I would argue, about (c). There are too many dealers and they are independent companies. Many of them will fail regardless of any bailout. I am sleepy. Back tomorrow,
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 09:00 pm
@realjohnboy,
Doctor Doom says;

Quote:
We are in the middle of a very severe recession that's going to continue through all of 2009 - the worst U.S. recession in the past 50 years. It's the bursting of a huge leveraged-up credit bubble. There's no going back, and there is no bottom to it. It was excessive in everything from subprime to prime, from credit cards to student loans, from corporate bonds to muni bonds. You name it. And it's all reversing right now in a very, very massive way. At this point it's not just a U.S. recession. All of the advanced economies are at the beginning of a hard landing. And emerging markets, beginning with China, are in a severe slowdown. So we're having a global recession and it's becoming worse.

Things are going to be awful for everyday people. U.S. GDP growth is going to be negative through the end of 2009. And the recovery in 2010 and 2011, if there is one, is going to be so weak - with a growth rate of 1% to 1.5% - that it's going to feel like a recession. I see the unemployment rate peaking at around 9% by 2010. The value of homes has already fallen 25%. In my view, home prices are going to fall by another 15% before bottoming out in 2010.

For the next 12 months I would stay away from risky assets. I would stay away from the stock market. I would stay away from commodities. I would stay away from credit, both high-yield and high-grade. I would stay in cash or cashlike instruments such as short-term or longer-term government bonds. It's better to stay in things with low returns rather than to lose 50% of your wealth. You should preserve capital. It'll be hard and challenging enough. I wish I could be more cheerful, but I was right a year ago, and I think I'll be right this year too.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortune/0812/gallery.market_gurus.fortune/index.html?cnn=yes

1 of 8 "really scary predicitons" on cnn.com
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 09:16 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, That's the first article I've read that pretty much mirrors my prognostications about the economy, but my guess about the home values is a bit more optimistic over the 15% more in 2010. It's because I believe that some of the government actions now being implemented will ameliorate some of the damage of the mortgage loans, and the forecast of the unemployment increasing from the now 6.7% to 9% is just over two percent which tells me that some of those are not home buyers but renters.

As for the stock market, I still have about 40% in equities, because it's my guess that most of the future negatives about our economy is pretty much included in the market levels now. I just don't see a total collapse of our commerce to the point of converting all assets into government bonds.

Other than that, I agree with Obama that we're headed into tougher times before things begins to improve. The weak growth forecast of 1% to 1.5% will be longer than most people expect. That's what my tea leaves tells me.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 09:37 pm
@cicerone imposter,
did you read the other 8??
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 09:39 pm
@hawkeye10,
No, but I'll go back and read them too! Thanks for the head's up.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 09:41 pm
more super good news for GM:
Quote:
GMAC Is Lacking Additional Investment
Bondholders Balking At Bank Holding Plan

By Binyamin Appelbaum
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, December 11, 2008; Page D01

Auto financing giant GMAC said yesterday that its investors were refusing to participate in a plan to save the company, darkening its prospects and increasing the strain on General Motors, whose dealers and customers rely on GMAC for loans.

GMAC, which has been forced to cover rising losses, wants to become a bank holding company so that it can tap funding sources including the Treasury Department's financial rescue program. But the company said in a securities filing that its investors are refusing to provide necessary financial support for the transformation, and that it will abandon the effort if the investors do not sign up by Friday

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/10/AR2008121003240.html?hpid=topnews
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Dec, 2008 10:11 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I read all eight articles, but found most to be too extreme in their opinion about the current crisis. Stocks will not fall another 50%, nor the mortgage crisis turn our economy into a depression. There are estimated to be 12,000 families with sub-prime mortgages who have the potential to lose their homes, but that's not the end of the world. If Obama's plan to create public works jobs as soon as he takes over in the white house becomes reality, it will slowly reverse the current trend of losing more jobs.

The biggest problem our economy has right now is the way our economy survived for the past decade or more - through credit and second mortgages on our homes to live beyond our means. That has come to a total halt; no bank will be lending money to people with a huge credit balance or those whose income cannot support the payments. This issue will take years to reverse, because Americans have essentially forgotten how to save for the future, even though over 50% of workers had some kind of retirement plan such as a government pension, a 401k, or IRA. Unfortunately, the average savings was below $100,000 for most workers - even those approaching retirement age. Most lost from 40% to 50% of those savings during this year's bear market. What this translates into is that people who would have retired will be working much longer to make ends meet. Many high school and college grads are having difficulty find jobs today, and that will continue for many years to come - like three to five more years, because the demand will be much bigger than the supply even with Obama's job creation plan.

The biggest savior of our economy is the diversity and variety of jobs that now exists that didn't when the great depression hit us square between the eyes. Not only that, but the governments infusion of money and credit should alleviate most of the problems of the depression.

Most families will voluntarily cut back on spending, because most do not know if they'll have a job next week, next month, or next year. This will exacerbate an already low consumer confidence, because we'll see more businesses closing shop. However, there is still a "base" of workers and retirees who still have the wherewithal to keep supporting our economy.

The balance between the haves and have-nots will decrease as we recover from this economic crisis - looking forward to the long term. For sale: .02c.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 03:43 pm
@cicerone imposter,
More bad news:
Quote:
Bank of America to cut up to 35,000 jobs

(Reuters) " Bank of America Corp said on Thursday it plans to cut up to 35,000 jobs over the next three years.

Highlights:

* Says expects to have a final plan early in 2009

* Says reductions are coming from both companies and affect all lines of

business and staff units

* Says reductions to eliminate redundancies due to merger with Merrill Lynch

and reflect current recessionary environment

* Says continues to actively originate loans through all of its credit product

lines
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 04:09 pm
@cicerone imposter,
from CNBC :

Quote:
JPMorgan Chase Is Having A 'Terrible' Quarter

JAMIE DIMON, JPMORGAN CHASE, ECONOMY, EMPLOYMENT, HOUSING
CNBC.com | 11 Dec 2008 | 04:50 PM ET
JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon told CNBC that the banking giant has had a "terrible" November and December, sending its stock down sharply and prompting a selloff in financial shares.


In a live interview, Dimon said the worse-than-expected quarter resulted from the "normal culprits""mortgages, credit, and high-yield bonds and loans. Dimon didn't give any projections on results, but his comments sent JPMorgan's stock down more than 10%.


Still, the CEO was upbeat about the bank's future. "We continue to grow," he said. "Earnings themselves may go up or down, but if you continue to grow the franchise, you'll do in the long run a very good job."

Still, financial stocks tumbled in reaction to Dimon's comments.

"It reiterates how difficult this market is and how the real economy is weighing down on financial stocks," said Giri Cherukuri, head trader at OakBrook Investments in Lisle, Illinois, referring to Dimon's comments. "It's continuing news that the world really hasn't changed. It's still a tough world out there."


the newswire was still hot and CANADIAN bank stocks took another dive !!!

but why be a worry-wart :
"Still, the CEO was upbeat about the bank's future. "

let's have FUN while we are going downhill !

http://www.celebratebig.com/pacific-northwest/mt-rainier-copper-creek-hut-cross-country-ski-2004/mt-rainier-mtta-copper-creek-hut-scott-sledding.jpg

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 04:11 pm
@hamburger,
As our economy continues to slide into never-never land, the deals on cruises continues to get better and better. They all look like "give aways" just to stay in business.

It sort'a makes my day, because I don't have any travel plans for 2009, but I love cruises...
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 04:22 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Best place for you ci. Stuck in the ocean admiring the sunsets and out of the way. I bet the crew really grovel.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 04:32 pm
@spendius,
You must realise ci. that "better" deals for you are worse deals for the cruise companies. Might they need a bailout eventually?

It said on our News that GM was losing $52,000 a minute. Who is getting it? It can't be just being liquidated surely?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Dec, 2008 05:34 pm
@cicerone imposter,
yep, these guys have lot of expensive new ships to pay for, and the market has collapsed. Until sep they thought that they could make a go of it offering cheap short cruises, and changing to unusual ports of call, but I doubt that works. The industry was in trouble anyways first because cruses had penetrated deep into the potential market, there were not a lot of new customers to be found, but then also a string of sick ships have turned people off big time. If these ships are a health risk, and nobody can solve the problem, then cruses are going to be difficult to sell. Now the economy has turned to **** at the same time that huge new ships are coming on line. I don't see how the cruise companies avoid bankruptcy.

It is worth noting that the "land cruise"company Grandluxe is already done for. They were poorly managed and under capitalized, but likely an omen of things to come.
 

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