114
   

Where is the US economy headed?

 
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 11:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
True regarding the number of people working past 65. I would have liked to use the age of 67 if I could have found how many folks that would have added to my population. As for teenagers, I can't recall when one even bothered to apply to work in any of my stores.
By the way:
1.5 million = number of active duty military.
2.5 million = number of people in jail.
10 million = number of 20 year olds. Not included in population of BLS Working Force.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 11:40 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
Disabled workers
8.8 million


Quote:
$1,130 average monthly benefit

http://www.ssa.gov/pressoffice/basicfact.htm

WOW! Their rich!
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Apr, 2013 11:51 pm
@hawkeye10,
I came up with a slightly smaller number of disabled workers. We'll go with your number of 9 million aged 21-65.
The purpose of this exercise was to get from the Total Population (306 m) down to the Work Force Population (154 m per BLS). Almost there.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:06 am
@hawkeye10,
Good graphs, Hawk. Thanks for sharing them.

It explains why new jobs aren't being created at the rates even a decade ago. Older folks are hanging onto their jobs at ever higher rates.


realjohnboy
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:22 am
@cicerone imposter,
There are 20 mil full time college students in the U.S. Population. What % should we consider to be in the Work Force Population. Or more accurately. what % should be excluded?
I saw an estimate of stay-at-home-moms/dads. I thought the number was way to high.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:29 am
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
It explains why new jobs aren't being created at the rates even a decade ago. Older folks are hanging onto their jobs at ever higher rates.

let's talk about the idiocy of Washington's constant pushing to get people to work longer when we desperately need too push them out to pasture to give young people a shot shall we? the young will eventually revolt, will be willing to burn America to the ground, because they are toughly fucked and thus have nothing to lose. my daughter graduated with a business degree 2 years ago and has a great job with Microsoft, but she says that very few of the classmates she is aware of are doing anything relevant with their degrees....if they are working at all they are doing stuff like check in staff at hotels or coffee makers.....these are people who were at great expense trained to run American enterprise and yet they are mostly doing stuff that uses NONE of their training.
Kolyo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:55 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

the young will eventually revolt, will be willing to burn America to the ground, because they are toughly fucked and thus have nothing to lose


The question is, what kind of society will replace the America that exists now?

One fine young venture capitalist shares his opinion on prison reform:
http://able2know.org/topic/192206-1#post-5015537

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:59 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
let's talk about the idiocy of Washington's constant pushing to get people to work longer when...


just how stupid do the Washington elite, both the D's and the R's, take us for? I for one would really like to know. Yes, the Fourth Estate is mostly derelict and the education system is in the crapper...... but jeez!
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 01:08 am
@Kolyo,
Quote:

The question is, what kind of society will replace the America that exists now?


we rarely even admit that we are broken, so how do we begin to talk about what is next?

evidence: according to the political and financial experts recovery is "just around the corner".....they have been telling us this for years now. very few people I talk to agree.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 03:41 am
@hawkeye10,
I don't agree with you often, but the politicians in Washington screw up more often than not. The amazing outcome is a mystery for history.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 05:21 am
@realjohnboy,
What about the huddle around the drinks machine discussing who got what in an office NFL Pick-um game John?

They are employed according to the government's definition of the word. From an economic point of view they are unemployed. So also when using the firm's phone for some personal business. And a few thousand other things. All over the country. Day in and day out.

That definition of employed is politics. The weaving of the winds so to speak. This thread is about the economy. Whether wages are too high to compete with other countries to whom our machine tool exporters have sold our kit. (A Pope would never have allowed that no matter how much machine tool exporters howled.)

And whether tariffs can be used to equal things up a bit.

How do we deal with Mrs Bargain-Hunter at the checkout.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 08:51 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
we rarely even admit that we are broken, so how do we begin to talk about what is next?


LOL we are the largest economic on the planet and our currency in the reserve currency for the rest of the world.

An American businesses are now sitting on over a trillion dollars of cash repeat cash so the idea that we are broke or broken is amusing or would be if the statement by a bright and well educated individual did not implied that too large of a percent of the population are illiteratures when it come to economic 101.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 08:52 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
we rarely even admit that we are broken, so how do we begin to talk about what is next?


LOL we are the largest economy on the planet and our currency in the reserve currency for the rest of the world.

An American businesses are now sitting on over a trillion dollars of cash repeat cash so the idea that we are broke is amusing or would be if the statement by a bright and well educated individual did not implied that too large of a percent of the population are illiteratures when it come to economic 101.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 09:45 am
@BillRM,
A few hundred years ago you would have been in the streets yelling " the land owners are fabulously wealthy...everything is fine...go home!"
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 10:34 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
A few hundred years ago you would have been in the streets yelling " the land owners are fabulously wealthy...everything is fine...go home!"


Sorry not true as it is my opinion that the main and in fact the only long term problem we are having is the concentration of the total wealth of the nation into far too few hands, as in a few hundreds, who for the most part are just sitting on it.

If we can overcome the special interests long enough to give them a choice of investing that wealth into the economy or having it tax away and recycling it to the lower consumers class that would spend it, we would therefore reboot the system on the demand side.

But there is no lack of wealth in the society it just not spread out in a manner that would promote growth thanks to the specials interests rigging the game to favor of the super wealthy to too large a degree.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 11:16 am
@BillRM,
The whole point of globalization from the capitalists view is that nations lost control of where the capital is put. If they don't like the American terms they will take their wealth and leave. There is not only no land to take but there are almost no hard assets to take, and if we piss them off they will bankrupt our banks. You sir have no leverage, and your 5th grade level understanding of how our economy works is sadly all too common. The lack of reality in our national debate on economic matters is diffinative proof that we are nowhere near effective reform. Increasingly though those who do understand have come to the conclusion that it is too late for reform...that the current economic order is terminal. We shall see if this also means that the global political order is also finished...like it was the last time this happened.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 11:23 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
The whole point of globalization from the capitalists view is that nations lost control of where the capital is put. If they don't like the American terms they will take their wealth and leave.


LOL and we tax them on their way out the door................
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 11:42 am
@hawkeye10,
Hawkeye the comment at the end of the below article seems almost aim at you.

Quote:
The rich are always trying to find ways to make the middle class make their arguments for them.”



Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/business/high-taxes-are-not-a-prime-reason-for-relocation-studies-say.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

The Myth of the Rich Who Flee From Taxes


Last month, Vladimir V. Putin hugged his newly minted fellow Russian citizen, the actor Gerard Depardieu, posing for cameras at the Black Sea port of Sochi. “I adore your country,” Mr. Depardieu gushed — especially its 13 percent flat tax on personal income.

Sochi may not be St. Tropez, but it does have winter temperatures in the 60s and even palm trees. Mr. Putin’s deputy prime minister confidently predicted a “mass migration of wealthy Europeans to Russia.”

Here in the United States, the three-time Masters champion Phil Mickelson recently walked off the 18th hole at Humana Challenge and said he might move from California because the state increased its top income tax rate to 13.3 percent from 10.3 percent.

“Hey Phil,” Gov. Rick Perry of Texas wrote in a Twitter message, “Texas is home to liberty and low taxes ... we would love to have you as well!!” Tiger Woods later said that he had left California for Florida for just that reason years ago. Mr. Mickelson can “vote with his Gulfstream,” a Wall Street Journal editorial noted, and warned California to “expect a continued migration.”

It’s an article of faith among low-tax advocates that income tax increases aimed at the rich simply drive them away. As Stuart Varney put it on Fox News: “Look at what happened in Britain. They raised the top tax rate to 50 percent, and two-thirds of the millionaires disappeared in the next tax year. Same things are happening in France. People are leaving where the top tax rate is 75 percent. Same thing happened in Maryland a few years ago. New millionaire’s tax, the millionaires disappeared. You’ve got exactly the same thing in California.”

That, at least, is what low-tax advocates want us to think, and on its face, it seems to make sense. But it’s not the case. It turns out that a large majority of people move for far more compelling reasons, like jobs, the cost of housing, family ties or a warmer climate. At least three recent academic studies have demonstrated that the number of people who move for tax reasons is negligible, even among the wealthy.

Cristobal Young, an assistant professor of sociology at Stanford, studied the effects of recent tax increases in New Jersey and California.

“It’s very clear that, over all, modest changes in top tax rates do not affect millionaire migration,” he told me this week. “Neither tax increases nor tax cuts on the rich have affected their migration rates.”

The notion of tax flight “is almost entirely bogus — it’s a myth,” said Jon Shure, director of state fiscal studies at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a nonprofit research group in Washington. “The anecdotal coverage makes it seem like people are leaving in droves because of high taxes. They’re not. There are a lot of low-tax states, and you don’t see millionaires flocking there.”

Despite the allure of low taxes, Mr. Depardieu hasn’t been seen in Russia since picking up his passport and seems to be hedging his bets by maintaining a residence in Belgium. Meanwhile, Russian billionaires are snapping up trophy properties in high-tax London, New York and Beverly Hills, Calif.

“I don’t hear about many billionaires moving to Moscow,” said Robert Tannenwald, a lecturer in economic policy at Brandeis University and former Federal Reserve economist. Along with Nicholas Johnson, he and Mr. Shure are co-authors of “Tax Flight Is a Myth,” a 2011 research paper.

Of course, some people do move for tax reasons, especially wealthy retirees, athletes and other celebrities without strong ties to high-tax locations, like jobs and families. In renouncing his French citizenship, Mr. Depardieu follows other French celebrities, the chef Alain Ducasse, the singer Johnny Hallyday and Yannick Noah, a former tennis star. Several Paris hedge fund managers have decamped to London and the fashion mogul Bernard Arnault applied for Belgian citizenship, though not, he has said, for tax reasons.

Stars like Mr. Depardieu and Mr. Mickelson certainly have incentives to move. Mr. Depardieu complained that he paid 85 percent of his income in taxes in France last year and has paid 145 million euros over 45 years. France has a top rate of 41 percent as well as a wealth tax, and the Socialist president, François Hollande, is trying to impose a temporary surcharge of 75 percent on incomes over 1 million euros. Mr. Mickelson earned more than $60 million last year, Sports Illustrated estimates, which means the three-percentage-point California tax increase could add up to an additional $1.8 million in tax.

Gregory Mankiw, an economist at Harvard, said that tax rates did affect migration, at least of certain groups. “Rich people can pretty much live anywhere,” he said. “If you’re a retired person trying to decide between Palm Beach and Santa Barbara, the tax difference between Florida and California is huge. If you’re an academic choosing between Stanford and Harvard, it might be a factor.” (Massachusetts has a flat income tax rate of 5.3 percent.)

For this affluent and mobile group, it doesn’t much matter where their official residence is. Mr. Mickelson and Mr. Woods travel the tournament circuit throughout the year. Very wealthy people often have multiple homes in different locations, even different countries, and can shuttle among them to avoid local taxes. One reason so many luxury apartments in Manhattan sit empty is that their foreign owners can’t spend more than half the year in them without incurring United States income tax liability.

A star like Mr. Depardieu “can go to Paris whenever he wants,” Mr. Shure noted. Professor Tannenwald agreed. “People who are very rich, who are retired or who aren’t tied to a particular location, do change their residency at a high rate based on tax differentials.”

But there aren’t many people like that. “Tax-induced flight is rare,” Professor Tannenwald said. “The rate of interstate migration is low to begin with. To the extent that people leave a state, or shun a potential destination, they do so primarily for other reasons, such as to find more affordable housing, better job prospects or a more attractive climate.”

Low-tax advocates like Mr. Varney point to Maryland as a prime example of tax flight. Maryland created a millionaire tax bracket in 2008 with a top rate of 6.25 percent. But a year later, the state reported that the number of millionaires filing returns had dropped by a third, and that total tax revenue from the group fell despite the rate increase. After a chorus of media criticism — “Millionaires flee Maryland taxes” (The Washington Examiner) and “Millionaires Go Missing” (The Wall Street Journal) — the state legislature let the increase expire in 2011.

But a study by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy, a nonprofit research group in Washington, found that nearly all the decline in millionaires was the result of a drop in incomes largely attributable to the stock market plunge and recession, and not to migration — “down and not out,” as the study put it.

In 2009, just 364 people in the millionaire bracket moved from Maryland or died (the data didn’t distinguish between the two) — about the same percentage who disappeared in 2007, before any tax increase. And in 2009, more than 1,500 taxpayers entered the millionaire rolls, either because they earned more or moved to Maryland that year. That data “directly contravenes the notion that changes in tax policy were discouraging the affluent from working hard and earning substantial sums of money, or driving them out of the state altogether,” the study concluded.

Professor Young said his study looked at every millionaire tax record filed in California over the last 20 years, and “neither tax increases nor tax cuts on the rich have affected their migration rates.” He said that the two major tax overhauls before the recent increase didn’t have any effect on migration rates of millionaires. “Among the very richest, people making more than $2 million, out-migration actually declined slightly after the 2005 millionaire tax,” he said.

Why didn’t they move? Professor Young said that for most people, even the very affluent, it’s not that easy, since most successful businesses and high-paying jobs are tied to specific locations. In addition, “entrepreneurship and earning power are clustered in highly competitive regions like Silicon Valley, Los Angeles and New York City,” he said. “People making over a million are typically close to their peak income years, and are enjoying the fruits of long-term career investments. This is hard to walk away from.”

His research in New Jersey found that, while some people left, any lost revenue was more than made up for by added revenue from people who stayed. He estimated that New Jersey’s 2004 tax increase on incomes over $500,000 raised nearly $1 billion a year, “with little cost in terms of tax flight.”

Mr. Shure added, “I can say flatly that no state has ever raised taxes and lost money.”

Yet the tax flight myth remains surprisingly persistent, fanned by media coverage of celebrities, who are among those most likely to have the means and motive to choose a home based on tax considerations. “You can always find an anecdote.” Mr. Shure said. “Many people want this to be true as a way to discourage tax increases. The rich are always trying to find ways to make the middle class make their arguments for them.”


This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: February
15, 2013
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:07 pm
@BillRM,
Not only is a lot of the money currently offshore but much of the rest can be gone with a mouse tap. You can't tax wealth that is already gone which is controlled by people who are also gone. You will be left with some houses and cars..not much else. We can make them hurt some as stocks/bonds and derivatives tank, but the masses will hurt a lot more.

Did you never wonder why Obama was so fast to cave in after he took the chair? He is no dummy, he knew that his cards sucked.
IRFRANK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Apr, 2013 12:08 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
the young will eventually revolt, will be willing to burn America to the ground


Reminds me of my generation in the 60s.

You say you want a revolution? Well, you know, we'd all love to see your plan.

You better free your mind instead.
 

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