Canada supplies the junkies!

msolga wrote:

Well, I'm talking about our current circumstances & the laws as they stand. Heroin is not about to be legalized any time soon. So my concern, right now, is with the criminal syndicates that exploit any profit-making venture, whatever the cost to society as a whole. Say nothing of the users, who I see as victims, really.

If heroin isn't legalised then continuing prohibition will ensure the price is ridiculously high. Crooks want it to remain prohibited to keep the price high. Jeepers the stuff isn't expensive to harvest and produce - it's hellishly expensive to produce due to the risk of criminal sanctions and that keeps the price sky high.

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See my link about what Canada is doing.

It IS, in fact, a research program - part of a series of such research programs in the less hysterical countries, I suspect.

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" No politician in Oz has the guts to contest those ideas. Ignorance feeds on itself and those who should know better haven't got the courage to break that particular vicious circle."

Well, re marijuana, South Australia has effectively decriminalized its consumption - I believe WA has done likewise - or is about to do so - and the NT, also?

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dlowan wrote:

See my link about what Canada is doing.

It IS, in fact, a research program - part of a series of such research programs in the less hysterical countries, I suspect.

Yep, I read about it when I was there a few days ago. Last I read or heard there was no huge blue about it, can you imagine an experimental programme like that getting up in Oz? I don't think so. As I said, it will be fascinating to read the research results. Won't make any difference either way in Oz though, we don't have politicians who are capable of making policy decisions on grounds other than what the polls are saying. We're all trapped in a vicious circle of populism.

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Of course there won't be any such trial in Oz! Think John Howard & imagine anything vaguely enlightened in this area..... I don't think so! Political dynamite for any Oz state government, too, sadly ...

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dlowan wrote:

" No politician in Oz has the guts to contest those ideas. Ignorance feeds on itself and those who should know better haven't got the courage to break that particular vicious circle."

Well, re marijuana, South Australia has effectively decriminalized its consumption - I believe WA has done likewise - or is about to do so - and the NT, also?

Nup, in SA (I live here), they are gutless. They've cranked up the penalties for personal possession and cultivation of cannabis so that what was once dealt with by an expiation notice is now dealt with by hello you're coming to court. But on the other hand they do have some diversion programmes but with all due respect they're not going to work - people like smoking cannabis, why the hell are they going to turn up in a diversion programme which has the aim of getting them to stop using something they enjoy. Tried to talk an alcoholic into a programme lately? Not going to work but it keeps the electorate busy.

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Yep - it is, indeed, difficult - and will be while opposition parties run by denigrating anything a government does. It would require strong bi-partisan support.

Hopefully, if the research does, indeed, support such a program, our drug agencies - which are, by and large, very sensible (and have managed to keep a firm harm minimisation flavour going in Oz in relation to their services - despite outbreaks of populist hysteria, often politically engineered) will eventually be able to educate effectively enough to get a prgram going here. Especially if the program proves cost-effective re crime reduction and health costs.

I suppose it would be too much for governments to be wise enough also to look at whether it is effective in promoting better parenting amongst addicts - sigh.

A blindingly obvious (and extraordinarily expensive) effect of addiction (to people who work with kids and families) is a couple of generations of people raised in such circumstances that their level of trauma has produced some of the scariest folk I have seen - as well as numerous less dramatically - but still profoundly negatively affected - folk - who tend to go on to produce yet more very damaged kids.

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msolga wrote:

Of course there won't be any such trial in Oz! Think John Howard & imagine anything vaguely enlightened in this area..... I don't think so! Political dynamite for any Oz state government, too, sadly ...

I have no scientific background but I do know that science requires an open mind. JH and many other politicians (to be fair) have firmly closed minds on this. It's up to us - the voters - to kick their arses so some sense flows into their brains. We're adults. We can handle the idea of properly conducted research even if it does explode our fondly held gut feelings. Well, can't we?

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goodfielder wrote:

dlowan wrote:
" No politician in Oz has the guts to contest those ideas. Ignorance feeds on itself and those who should know better haven't got the courage to break that particular vicious circle."

Well, re marijuana, South Australia has effectively decriminalized its consumption - I believe WA has done likewise - or is about to do so - and the NT, also?

Nup, in SA (I live here), they are gutless. They've cranked up the penalties for personal possession and cultivation of cannabis so that what was once dealt with by an expiation notice is now dealt with by hello you're coming to court. But on the other hand they do have some diversion programmes but with all due respect they're not going to work - people like smoking cannabis, why the hell are they going to turn up in a diversion programme which has the aim of getting them to stop using something they enjoy. Tried to talk an alcoholic into a programme lately? Not going to work but it keeps the electorate busy.

Have you evidence re the penalties stuff?

I know Rann is in the midst of a disgusting contest about who can look harsher on crime (DON'T get me started on THAT!) - along with a number of pollies in other states - but I was listening to Mal Hyde yesterday - and his comment was that few expiation notices, even, are being given out.

I know the number of plants allowed for personal use has gone down - but, with modern cultivation methods, ten were more than enough to provide a lot for sale!

Oh - I am not sure what diversion programs you are talking about?

I live in SA, too - and I do not know what you mean.

The drug agency folk do not try to make folk stop - they are into harm minimization (though some people SHOULD stop).

Do you mean a criminal justice diversion program?

PS: Actually, some pollies DO have the guts.

They get raised in private party debates and such - also, a number of independents, Greens and Democrats have raised them publicly.

I think it will be a slow process - edging the public along, so that raising such ideas does not overwhelmingly get the type of reaction from the public that some on this thread have typified - so that pollies can raise it without being electorally crucified - and educating the pollies not to rip any party proposing it apart for electoral gain.

If it proves to be strongly backed by research, I suspect it will happen here - eventually.

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The penalties are in the Controlled Substances Act (and the Regulations and that's where you have to keep an eye because of course regs don't need to be amended in Parliament through the usual system but can be slipped through in Executive Council).

Mike Rann is a huge disappointmen to me. Nice bloke but fair dinkum he is a consummate politician. When he quits he will look back and see many missed chances. Anyway enough of that or I'll bore everyone.

Mal Hyde is a realist (albeit a bit of a moralist). I am not going to second guess him because he's an intelligent man and a good Commissioner (being able to survive the shift in government is testament to that). He'll go along with whatever the Parliament decides (as well as being a realist he is also pretty keen on democracy).

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Quote:

The drug agency folk do not try to make folk stop - they are into harm minimization (though some people SHOULD stop).

Well said.

Quote:

Do you mean a criminal justice diversion program?

Yes I do. No way should someone wear a criminal conviction for personal use of cannabis. Thanks for clarifying that point, I'm indebted.

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Canada supplies the junkies!

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