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Democratisation in the Middle East - the debate

 
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 01:48 pm
the renaissance, Steve you silly fool, you had to ask!
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:07 pm
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Lash wrote:

What are our people on the ground in Iran doing now? Still fomenting a popular uprising?


What do you mean exactly by this?

The US agents who have been working with the students for a year or so... I wonder what tack they'll take now.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:15 pm
well Lash you know how it is with liberal students, they just appear to be unruly and difficult to steer especially when they have the power of the government against them, you remember Kent State?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:15 pm
ah yes the renaissance.

of course. And I was thinking of the bolsheviks. Silly me.

Renaissance is a bit tricky for dyslexics n'est pas?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:16 pm
nah, it's easily done, just a bit of smoke and mirrors.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:21 pm
Well John Dee did a bit of that, but not sure if he was a Renaissance man.

What I think is tragic is that we a going backwards into medievalism, religiousity and stupidity. Or our leaders are, hopefully the people have more sense.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:23 pm
yeah right.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:26 pm
was that dyslexian tongue in cheek?
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:32 pm
moi?
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:33 pm
well its not exactly unheard of dys

however give you benefit of doubt this time Smile
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Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:41 pm
dyslexia wrote:
well Lash you know how it is with liberal students, they just appear to be unruly and difficult to steer especially when they have the power of the government against them, you remember Kent State?

Liberal? Compared to Sharia, I suppose they are.

Compared to Sharia, I'm liberal, too.

If there has to be loss of life in Iran related to this crack down, I hope it is more a long the lines of the 4 dead at Ohio, rather than the thousands slaughtered in China.

Of course, one would hope no one dies. But, I don't think the students or the other youth will lay down for his. And I don't think Khomeini will tolerate their dissent.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 02:52 pm
Quote:
Liberal? Compared to Sharia, I suppose they are.

Nah Liberal as in not being patriotic you know like having thoughts other than what the governement tells them to. Radicals if you will, degenerate radicals who just can't seem to get behind nationalism, the flag and subservience to the national interests. The ungrateful bastards (some may even be anarchists) who probably don't want to enlist, wear the frekkin uniform and go die in one more stupid war of liberation (gold or oil in someone else's pockets). Next thing you know they will be sportin' long hair and wearing levi 501 button fly jeans. But hey, you have a really good history of setting them up and letting them fall cause all we really want is for them to do the dieing for us we don't actually give a **** about their futures or their lives after they serve our needs. But you know I like your line about being liberal compared to sharia, kinda stepping out there on that one aren't you?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Jun, 2005 11:05 pm
I am about a week away from reading "Reading Lolita in Tehran", which affected me with the complexity that must be going on there.

Not that I didn't guess that. Or that that book is the last best take on the place. But it engaged me.

And past that I have an old pal on Venice Front Walk who had a cafe; he was a sort of padrone, as far as we could gather, for fellow immigrants. If he is still alive, I am sure he is bummed tonight.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 06:29 am
dyslexia wrote:
Quote:
Liberal? Compared to Sharia, I suppose they are.

Nah Liberal as in not being patriotic you know like having thoughts other than what the governement tells them to. Radicals if you will, degenerate radicals who just can't seem to get behind nationalism, the flag and subservience to the national interests. The ungrateful bastards (some may even be anarchists) who probably don't want to enlist, wear the frekkin uniform and go die in one more stupid war of liberation (gold or oil in someone else's pockets). Next thing you know they will be sportin' long hair and wearing levi 501 button fly jeans. But hey, you have a really good history of setting them up and letting them fall cause all we really want is for them to do the dieing for us we don't actually give a **** about their futures or their lives after they serve our needs. But you know I like your line about being liberal compared to sharia, kinda stepping out there on that one aren't you?


That's a little simplistic for you, isn' it? So, a liberal is one who questions govt, and conservatives just drone on lapping up everything that comes out of Washington...?

What did you mean by this?

But hey, you have a really good history of setting them up and letting them fall cause all we really want is for them to do the dieing for us we don't actually give a **** about their futures or their lives after they serve our needs

It is a disgusting assumptive comment that I would have thought was beneath you.

But you know I like your line about being liberal compared to sharia, kinda stepping out there on that one aren't you?

It's a fact. How well you turn it into some insult to me or conservatives remains to be seen. Go for it.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 10:18 am
Bolsheviks were noooo liberals, Steve - they shot 'em for breakfast ;-)
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 10:35 am
This is another article I found very instructive (from TNR again, yes, sorry - I found a particularly interesting one from the taz as well but I'd have to translate it from German first), even if it's still from before even the first round.

Again, I think the actual results (not just re: who won, but also the extent of irregularities in the first round) makes it seem a tad all too optimistic, when looking back. And some things didn't quite go as predicted - turnout in the first round was actually quite high, it only tumbled in round 2, for example. But it still gives a good feel for the situation and some interesting insights. Especially on the point of form versus substance in the elections themselves and on the background of how the power struggle between Khatami and Khamenei and his Council of Guardians has (d)evolved these past years.

Quote:
DAILY EXPRESS
Empty Gesture


by Patrick Clawson
Only at TNR Online
Post date: 06.17.05

Today, when Iranians go to the polls to elect a new president, the vote will almost certainly be free, competitive, and fair. It will also be a joke. Always inventive, Iran's ruling mullahs years ago developed a new twist on the old autocratic game of holding sham elections. Whereas the conventional sham election consists of a rigged race for an important political post--as when Saddam Hussein claimed victory in Iraq's 2003 presidential election with 99 percent of the vote--today's Iranian vote is the opposite: a real race for a meaningless post. And weirdly enough, that could turn out to be a good thing for the future of democracy in Iran.

Across the Middle East, old style sham elections that generated ludicrously overwhelming victories for the incumbent have become passé; the new style is to create the appearance of a more open system. For instance, Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak is allowing carefully selected opposition candidates to challenge his bid for a seventh term. His previous victories, by contrast, came in mere yes-or-no referenda on whether to approve his reelection.

Iran, which started offering seemingly fair but actually irrelevant elections years ago, continues to put on a misleading show. In the run up to today's vote, candidates have pandered (former Parliament Speaker Mehdi Karrubi pledged that the government would give each Iranian $65 per month) and posed in heroic photos (ex-Police Chief Mohammad Qalibaf, a sometime pilot, has run ads showing him flying an Airbus). Each contender has tried to look more modern than the next. Not satisfied with the same slick website that every candidate has assembled, presumed front runner and former President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani had young women on roller blades swerving among cars handing out bumper stickers saying in English, "Hashemi4Future."

Slick? Yes. Democratic? Not exactly. Real power in Iran remains in the hands of those who control revolutionary institutions, especially Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and the Guardian Council he handpicks. The Guardian Council only approved the presidential candidacies of 8 out of 1,014 applicants. All those chosen are committed to modernizing within the framework of a system that keeps power out of the hands of the people.

The hardliners are unwilling to risk a repeat of the 1997 elections, in which Iranians had the poor taste to elect as president an underdog candidate whose landslide victory unleashed a wave of popular demands for a more open society. True, as president, the erstwhile progressive Mohammad Khatami has largely dithered, doing little to move reform forward while insisting on loyalty to the ideology and institutions of the Islamic Republic. But Khatami's very presence as president was a reminder that the people wanted reform; plus he refused to crack down on the young, the intellectuals, and the women who were demanding more freedom. So the hardliners responded by whittling away the president's powers. Iran's constitution provides for a weak president very much subordinate to the Supreme Leader who appoints judges, commands the military, directs radio and television, and can overrule any decision of the parliament or president. Which meant there was little Khatami could do when Khamenei gave his blessing to the hardliners in the security forces and the judiciary to set up parallel institutions completely outside the formal government structure.

Time after time, the government has found itself overruled by revolutionary leaders. The Information Ministry licensed free newspapers only to see them shut down and their staff arrested by judicial police over whom the executive branch had no control. The Foreign Minister was not even invited to key meetings with European officials about the nuclear program, which were conducted by the National Security Council under Khamenei. The Transport Ministry built a new Tehran airport only to have the Revolutionary Guards refuse to allow it to open.



But by taking this approach, the Iranian regime is taking a real risk. In doing such a good job of creating the illusion of democracy, the regime raised expectations among its citizens that their votes would count for something--that change was possible from within the system. As it has become clear that the elections are a sham, Iranians have grown alienated from the process. From his jail cell, the courageous writer Akbar Ganji has issued a manifesto calling for an election boycott: "The path that the reformers have picked for reform will not lead to democracy. ... The despotic system will be weakened and undermined if there is no continuous cooperation with it." Voices across the political spectrum, from intellectuals to monarchists to communists, are calling for a referendum to change the constitution. Turnout is expected to be low.

It's not just Iranians who are less and less likely to be fooled by this democratic charade. Even among European leaders--who have spent years refusing to press Iran for fear of undermining Khatami--there is little enthusiasm for the self-proclaimed pragmatists or reformers. Officials from the E3--Britain, France, and Germany--have rejected the argument that they should shore up the victor against his hardline opponents by cutting him some slack in nuclear negotiations. In fact, the Iranians have so alienated the E3 with repeated lies about their nuclear program that Europeans are taking an unusually hard line. In April Iran threatened to undercut an agreement with the E3 by converting some uranium into uranium hexaflouride gas, which is fed into centrifuges for enrichment. The European response was to stand firm, sounding out Security Council members about condemning Iran if it went ahead with those plans. In preparing for the end-of-July resumption of negotiations, the Europeans are not talking about how much to concede to Iran; they are instead shoring up international support for the position that Iran must suspend enrichment and conversion indefinitely. And they are having some unexpected success: To Tehran's shock, Russia is taking a tougher and tougher stance on Iran's nuclear program.

What will happen in the next few years is entirely unclear. Many Iran experts put forward convincing arguments as to why the regime's control is rock solid: a core of true believers are ready to kill for the revolution; the regime has a powerful ideology; and most Iranians are tuned out of politics. All true. But, then again, how many Russia experts foresaw the fall of the Soviet Union? What's more, Iranians have a long history of popular uprisings for democracy. When Americans think of Iran's past what may come to mind is the absolute rule of the Shah in the 1970s; but Iran had a bloody Constitutional Revolution from 1906 to 1911 in which merchants and mullahs demanded that the Shah agree to share power. (He conceded but then wore down the reformers.) In fact, the 1979 Islamic Revolution was a true people's movement aimed at overthrowing autocracy--before it was hijacked by hardline mullahs determined to silence their opponents.

By failing to provide even a limited outlet for their citizens' democratic aspirations, Iran's mullahs have created the risk that an outcry for complete democracy will grow. "[P]residential campaigns unfolding across Iran's capital," The Washington Post has reported, "betray not the slightest suggestion that this is a theocratic state." That, of course, is exactly the point. Fortunately, most Iranians are no longer fooled by their government's electoral sham. We shouldn't be either.

0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Jun, 2005 05:41 pm
<on the totally trivial side, I am learning to pronounce even more names>
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jun, 2005 04:48 am
Class seems to have played a role as well as the opposition between reform and religious orthodoxy, Dutch newspaper Trouw reports (my translation):

Quote:
Close to the Ferdowsi square in the centre of Teheran there are celebrations. [..] Boys of about eighteen, dressed in black, wave with little flags with [Ahmadinejad's] name. They yell that he is the hero of the Iranian people and shout some "death-to-America" slogans in between.

One of them, Moustafa (17), a thin dark boy with a proudly starting little beard, is eager to explain his enthusiasm for the newly elected president of Iran. ,,He is just one of us. He wants to work for the poor. That's why he wants to divide the oil profits honestly among the population."

His friend Mehdi (18) chimes in: ,,He's also going to fight corruption. Besides, he's a good Muslim, he wants a real Islamic state. It has to be finished with those women whose headscarf hangs way down to almost on their shoulders. It's become all much too free these last few years, especially in Teheran. It's all Khatami's fault."

Ahmadinejad, a veteran of the Revolutionary Guard, won many votes thanks to his image as a godfearing man with a sobre lifestyle, who promises justice to Iranians who suffer under poverty, unemployment, inflation and corruption. Saturday he said on the state radio that he will help build "an exemplary, developed and powerful Islamic state" and called for national unity.

It seems that it's mostly the middle classes who want more freedom, a more open society, more religious tolerance - students, the educated professions, those who have been able to afford the pleasures of a slightly more open economy the last few years. The conservative elite, on the other hand, seems to have cleverly appealed, over the heads of the middle classes, to the working poor and unemployed of the city and countryside, for whom I assume civil liberties take a backseat to poverty, unemployment and corruption.

Fairly typical really. Think of Eastern Europe: the Ukrainian and Serbian democratic revolutions, just like the Slovak and Romanian democratic movements, were also middle-class movements, pitting the traditional educated classes and emergent entrepreneurial class, all Western-oriented, against the country's authoritarian rulers, who in turn tried to stay in power by appealing to the miners, the peasants, the factory workers, with a mix of nationalism and economic populism.

Hell, even the Kings and Emperors of the seventeenth, eighteenth century mobilised the royalist poor against the middle classes and their clamouring for democracy; in Holland it led to the quartering of Johan and Cornelis de Witt.

Of course, half the Iranian population staying home, including a sixth who had still bothered to vote in the first round, when actual reformist candidates were still at hand, must be the most important explanation for what happened. But this is all an interesting addition. Ahmadinejad did manage to mobilise over a quarter of eligible voters after all, apparently.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 06:35 am
Quote:
Hezbollah represented in Lebanese cabinet

BEIRUT -- Lebanon's prime minister-designate, Fouad Siniora, has finally unveiled his cabinet, which includes for the first time a member of the Shia Muslim militant group Hezbollah, regarded as terrorist by Washington.

Mr. Siniora's cabinet was approved by President Émile Lahoud after he rejected three previous lineups, and needs the parliament's approval to become the first elected government since Syria ended its three-decade military presence in April.

"It is a coherent team . . . chosen to overcome the challenges confronting Lebanon," Mr. Siniora said yesterday, adding that he is proud to have Hezbollah in his cabinet.

"It is excellent that Hezbollah is in the government. . . . It has a strong popular base and must be represented."
0 Replies
 
gozmo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Jul, 2005 06:42 am
BM
0 Replies
 
 

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