princesspupule wrote:Wait a minute, what does any of this have to do with the definition of democracy?
Wasn't Greece a democracy, but women had no rights, and there were slaves who had no rights? You can have a democracy without a constitution, or any written laws, can't you? This is utter bullsh!t!
Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges
---
Note: government by
the people; a government in which the supreme power is vested in
the people.
Not: by the part of the people that has the right colour. Or: by the segment of the people that is assigned the right to vote, which is denied to all the others.
So no, when women have no rights and there are slaves who have no rights, that's no democracy by any approximation to today's definition. When the majority of the people don't have the right to vote, like in apartheid-era South Africa, that's no democracy. When there are no written laws whatsoever, that's no democracy.
The damage done to Lebanon's fragile peace and democracy in one week surpasses that afflicted on Israel in decades. And the damage these images do to any remaining trust in the West as fair broker in the Middle East will boost fundamentalism.
Quote:Lebanese who fled as youngsters forced to flee again with own children
Angelique Chrisafis and Brian Whitaker
July 20, 2006
The Guardian
Wearing a sweat-soaked vest and beach shorts and clutching a leather briefcase in one hand and a baffled five-year-old in the other, Joe Noujeim cut an odd figure as he walked down the gangplank of a 5,200 tonne British destroyer to a Cyprus tourist spot yesterday morning.
Mr Noujeim, his Portsmouth-born wife, Maria, and their three children were among the first people to arrive at Limassol port in Britain's biggest sea evacuation since Dunkirk. Mrs Noujeim had packed only two rucksacks, full of food and water, and was encouraging her children to be brave in the face of danger. "Our building was shaking," said young Michael, not sure where he was.
For nights on end the family had watched bomb attacks from their flat window 500 metres from the main Hizbullah neighbourhoods of south Beirut. Mr Noujeim [..] said the worst part of the ordeal had been the private taxi ride through Beirut's bombed streets to get to the port and the British ship.
[..] the first voyage was a priority mission of mostly women, children and families, who had travelled in the sailors' mess and been allowed 20kg (45lb) of luggage per family. For safety reasons the navy had only taken them above deck in small batches for occasional "fresh air" breaks during the 11-hour, 140-mile journey. The captain said he had carefully negotiated Israel's naval blockade, staying in touch with Israeli naval ships in a "friendly way".
[..] In Cyprus there was a feeling of deja vu. The Mediterranean island has hosted hundreds of refugees from the Middle East conflict over the past 30 years. Yesterday people who had fled Lebanon with their families in the 1980s as children were now fleeing again with their own children.
Khayri Kaaki travelled on the HMS Gloucester with his Wilmslow-born wife, Maya, and their one-year-old son. They had escaped to the mountains outside Beirut, but said the supermarkets had run out of bread, sugar and water as they waited for days to be evacuated. The family took a taxi at speeds of up to 120mph to reach the port once the embassy had given them the go-ahead.
"It was terrifying. We thought a bridge was going to be bombed as we crossed it," he said.
"In 1982, when Israel invaded, I was a seven-year-old. I remember the 15-hour journey to escape into Syria, I remember crying in the car and my mother shouting at me. Now I'm doing the same with my own son."
His friend Tanaz Agha fled to Cyprus from Lebanon in the early 1980s as a child. The family brought no bags and ended up staying for 20 years. Now she has escaped again with nothing but her passport and wallet and is staying in the same Limassol hotel she did as a two-year-old, rinsing her one T-shirt each day. [..]
"This will get worse. The terrible thing is that now foreigners are coming out, Israel won't care, they'll do what they like to the place," she said.
[..] just as European countries and the US and Australia brought boats to evacuate their citizens, hundreds of Lebanese were trying to travel the other way. Late on Tuesday night at Larnaca port, 100 Lebanese queued to board a French boat to Beirut which earlier that day had evacuated 900 French people and was now going back for more.
"I have to reach my children in Beirut," said Norah, a banker who had been on a training course in Cyprus when the attacks began.
[..] The embassy is still very concerned about 86 Britons trapped in southern Lebanon. Agreeing safe passage with the Israelis is proving difficult. "We are in contact with other international partners, and if we can we'll piggy-back on other people's operations," an embassy official said.
I find it interesting how the US can supply Israel with munitions faster than removing to safety American citizens from Lebanon. Priorities anyone?
July 22, 2006
Weapons
U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis
By DAVID S. CLOUD and HELENE COOPER
WASHINGTON, July 21 ?- The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.
The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran's efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.
The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said. But Israel's request for expedited delivery of the satellite and laser-guided bombs was described as unusual by some military officers, and as an indication that Israel still had a long list of targets in Lebanon to strike.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that she would head to Israel on Sunday at the beginning of a round of Middle Eastern diplomacy. The original plan was to include a stop to Cairo in her travels, but she did not announce any stops in Arab capitals.
Instead, the meeting of Arab and European envoys planned for Cairo will take place in Italy, Western diplomats said. While Arab governments initially criticized Hezbollah for starting the fight with Israel in Lebanon, discontent is rising in Arab countries over the number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, and the governments have become wary of playing host to Ms. Rice until a cease-fire package is put together.
To hold the meetings in an Arab capital before a diplomatic solution is reached, said Martin S. Indyk, a former American ambassador to Israel, "would have identified the Arabs as the primary partner of the United States in this project at a time where Hezbollah is accusing the Arab leaders of providing cover for the continuation of Israel's military operation."
The decision to stay away from Arab countries for now is a markedly different strategy from the shuttle diplomacy that previous administrations used to mediate in the Middle East. "I have no interest in diplomacy for the sake of returning Lebanon and Israel to the status quo ante," Ms. Rice said Friday. "I could have gotten on a plane and rushed over and started shuttling around, and it wouldn't have been clear what I was shuttling to do."
Before Ms. Rice heads to Israel on Sunday, she will join President Bush at the White House for discussions on the Middle East crisis with two Saudi envoys, Saud al-Faisal, the foreign minister, and Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the secretary general of the National Security Council.
The new American arms shipment to Israel has not been announced publicly, and the officials who described the administration's decision to rush the munitions to Israel would discuss it only after being promised anonymity. The officials included employees of two government agencies, and one described the shipment as just one example of a broad array of armaments that the United States has long provided Israel.
One American official said the shipment should not be compared to the kind of an "emergency resupply" of dwindling Israeli stockpiles that was provided during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, when an American military airlift helped Israel recover from early Arab victories.
David Siegel, a spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, said: "We have been using precision-guided munitions in order to neutralize the military capabilities of Hezbollah and to minimize harm to civilians. As a rule, however, we do not comment on Israel's defense acquisitions."
Israel's need for precision munitions is driven in part by its strategy in Lebanon, which includes destroying hardened underground bunkers where Hezbollah leaders are said to have taken refuge, as well as missile sites and other targets that would be hard to hit without laser and satellite-guided bombs.
Pentagon and military officials declined to describe in detail the size and contents of the shipment to Israel, and they would not say whether the munitions were being shipped by cargo aircraft or some other means. But an arms-sale package approved last year provides authority for Israel to purchase from the United States as many as 100 GBU-28's, which are 5,000-pound laser-guided bombs intended to destroy concrete bunkers. The package also provides for selling satellite-guided munitions.
An announcement in 2005 that Israel was eligible to buy the "bunker buster" weapons described the GBU-28 as "a special weapon that was developed for penetrating hardened command centers located deep underground." The document added, "The Israeli Air Force will use these GBU-28's on their F-15 aircraft."
American officials said that once a weapons purchase is approved, it is up to the buyer nation to set up a timetable. But one American official said normal procedures usually do not include rushing deliveries within days of a request. That was done because Israel is a close ally in the midst of hostilities, the official said.
Although Israel had some precision guided bombs in its stockpile when the campaign in Lebanon began, the Israelis may not have taken delivery of all the weapons they were entitled to under the 2005 sale.
Israel said its air force had dropped 23 tons of explosives Wednesday night alone in Beirut, in an effort to penetrate what was believed to be a bunker used by senior Hezbollah officials.
A senior Israeli official said Friday that the attacks to date had degraded Hezbollah's military strength by roughly half, but that the campaign could go on for two more weeks or longer. "We will stay heavily with the air campaign," he said. "There's no time limit. We will end when we achieve our goals."
The Bush administration announced Thursday a military equipment sale to Saudi Arabia, worth more than $6 billion, a move that may in part have been aimed at deflecting inevitable Arab government anger at the decision to supply Israel with munitions in the event that effort became public.
On Friday, Bush administration officials laid out their plans for the diplomatic strategy that Ms. Rice will pursue. In Rome, the United States will try to hammer out a diplomatic package that will offer Lebanon incentives under the condition that a United Nations resolution, which calls for the disarming of Hezbollah, is implemented.
Diplomats will also try to figure out the details around an eventual international peacekeeping force, and which countries will contribute to it. Germany and Russia have both indicated that they would be willing to contribute forces; Ms. Rice said the United States was unlikely to.
Implicit in the eventual diplomatic package is a cease-fire. But a senior American official said it remained unclear whether, under such a plan, Hezbollah would be asked to retreat from southern Lebanon and commit to a cease-fire, or whether American diplomats might depend on Israel's continued bombardment to make Hezbollah's acquiescence irrelevant.
Daniel Ayalon, Israel's ambassador to Washington, said that Israel would not rule out an international force to police the borders of Lebanon and Syria and to patrol southern Lebanon, where Hezbollah has had a stronghold. But he said that Israel was first determined to take out Hezbollah's command and control centers and weapons stockpiles.
Thom Shanker contributed reporting for this article.
nimh wrote:princesspupule wrote:Wait a minute, what does any of this have to do with the definition of democracy?
Wasn't Greece a democracy, but women had no rights, and there were slaves who had no rights? You can have a democracy without a constitution, or any written laws, can't you? This is utter bullsh!t!
Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
1 a : government by the people; especially : rule of the majority
b : a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
5 : the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges
---
Note: government by
the people; a government in which the supreme power is vested in
the people.
Not: by the part of the people that has the right colour. Or: by the segment of the people that is assigned the right to vote, which is denied to all the others.
So no, when women have no rights and there are slaves who have no rights, that's no democracy by any approximation to today's definition. When the majority of the people don't have the right to vote, like in apartheid-era South Africa, that's no democracy. When there are no written laws whatsoever, that's no democracy.
So where does your definition fit into working democracy in the U.S. circa 1960 or any other date which predates the Civil Rights Movement here in the U.S.? We weren't a democracy then?- Or that doesn't count as "today" although it was more recent history than the jews creating today's Israel following WW2...
The Middle East Tradition and History of its Culture is not conducive to Democratic Principals. These regional folks subscribe to a cultural set of social rules that are so far away from the Western Ethic that it is impossible to reconcile the two idealologies. The Middle East Tradition relates to the here and now, and human decisions on how best to manipulate the "real time" situation in favour of the person or the business, the state or the beliefs/fears of the individual. This is why the US will never leave a footprint or anything positive in this area.
One day, if in the interests of the gangsters, government, or locals, they will applaud approve and support the Western attempts to Democratise the Middle East. Then if even a minor issue comes up that may threaten the power of the gov't/gang/individual, there will be a great change of attitude to the West. ie. the horrid concept of Female equality, freedom of religion, and the rule of law. The US should get out of there and simply become a power that clearly states; your culture does not work here. We no longer believe that the number of honest supporters in the middle east outnumbers the dishonest ones, consequently we are pulling out.
This should be followed by an admonition by the US of the average people in these regions indicating they could have made democratic reform work if they had the stones to take advantage of the situation.
At that point the U.S. should simply state that they will not tolerate any threats or attacks by some of these middle east groups by saying that if they are attacked, they will identify the motivator, the area of the power base of the attackers, and simply exact military retribution in full force on that area. The general public in these areas should be advised that if they don't get on board by doing there own work to rectify these situations, they may become victims of an attack.'
The deployed forces have stated for a long time that the natives in those areas lean in the direction from day to day for what is in there best interest, from day to day. The member of the public that you built a school for last month, might be ready to cut your throat in the next month because the extremists have again occupied that area.
Quite frankly, I don't believe it is worth an allied soldiers life to be over there, and suffer the indignities of betrayal, and criminal fraud by the leaders of these countries, not to mention the fair weather changes in views of the locals.
The Western World needs to turn off the tap of the milk of human kindness on these people until they get the message that they can't impose the barbarian principals of the stone ages on modern society.