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Hard to understand the French

 
 
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 12:19 am
It's been a struggle trying to understand the French, but I think it's more than just me!
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France child sex trial to open

A special hall has been built to accommodate the trial
One of the biggest criminal trials ever held in France is set to open, with 66 men and women set to face charges of rape and child sex abuse.
The trial will get under way on Thursday in a specially built hall in Angers, western France.

More than 60 lawyers will take part and the prosecution case runs to 430 pages, the French news agency AFP reports.

There are 45 alleged child victims - the oldest aged 14 and the youngest just six months.

Children bartered

Of the 66 defendants, 39 face charges of raping children under 15 and of pimping. A total of 39 men and 27 women are going on trial.

The crimes could incur jail terms ranging up to 30 years.


The crimes allegedly took place between June 1999 and February 2002 in Angers' Saint-Leonard district.

The prosecution says most were perpetrated in the flat of a former convicted sex offender, Franck Vergondy, and in sheds on garden allotments.

The crimes reportedly came to light when investigators monitored the activities of Eric Joubert, a convicted sex offender released in 1999. He and Mr Vergondy allegedly ran the paedophile ring.

Nearly all the defendants were living on welfare benefits.

"Parents of one kid sold her for a new car tyre," said lawyer Philippe Cosnard, quoted by the AFP news agency. Other children were allegedly bartered for small sums of money, food or cigarettes.

A girl of 10 was allegedly raped by more than 30 adults.

Prosecutors say more than half of the accused have admitted their guilt.

But the prosecution hopes to avoid any repetition of the errors that plagued a previous high-profile paedophile trial - the Outreau case in northern France last year.

In that case, the accused spent months in prison awaiting trial and 13 people were implicated on the testimony of a woman who later admitted she had been lying.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,350 • Replies: 57
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 01:17 am
What are your special difficulties here, c.i.?

There will be more trials all over Europe (and the USA) coming in future, since police nowadays is better than before getting e.g. all those internet paedophile rings.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 09:53 am
To sum the until now known up:

One of France's biggest-ever criminal trials got under way today as sixty-six people led by two former sex offenders stood accused of participating in a pedophilia ring in which children and babies were prostituted for food and small sums of money. All of the accused come from the poorest and least educated sections of society. In a 420-page legal filing state prosecutors contend that dozens of children, from the age of six months to fourteen years, were raped by their parents and offered to other adults for sex. Some of the 45 victims are expected to testify in the trial by closed-circuit television. None of the children will appear in court. Defense lawyers plan to argue that government social workers monitoring many of the suspects failed in their responsibilities to see any signs of abuse and that some of the defendants are illiterate and do not understand the charges against them. If convicted, thirty-nine people could face up to 30 years in prison if convicted of raping minors under age 15 and on prostitution charges. The others face up ten years in prison if convicted of sexual violence against minors and failure to denounce crimes.
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 10:05 am
It's a tough situation every where, isn't it? We must protect the innocent from false accusiations. We must protect our children. Often, the children are the only witnesses.

France is probably handling this as well as possible, and their system (Napoleonic Code?) seems less likely to result in a false acquittal than others, though I'm definately speaking as an outsider on this one.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 10:21 am
Walter, I know that pedophiles exist everywhere - even in the US. The US media shares information when pedophiles in the US are caught; no surprise there. The exception seems to be the huge number of adults cooperating with each other in France; I don't ever remember the numbers in the US coming close. Gang rape of children is a real phenomenon, but maybe I'm wrong. Trying to understand.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 10:26 am
Correct, roger. We lately had such a case here in Germany: a lot were accused - but only (more or less) hot air came out at the end (well, in the first few days of the trial, to be correct).

The Penal Code of 1810 (Code pénal), btw, was replaced by a new Code in 1994.
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 11:21 am
cicerone,
there was just a case here in San Diego, where a pedophile
ring was captured by undercover agents. Pedophiles are
(unlike this case in France) often highly educated individuals
who are extremely low profile and careful as to their
sexual perversion towards children.

They officially organized "adventure fishing trips" to Baja California where children were already waiting for them
in the hotels. Since Mexico is a poor country, you'll always
find desperate parents who prostitute their offspring for a few
dollars.

It's been reported that more and more pedophiles are
going into Mexico and other South American nations for
the sole purpose of exploring their sick perversion.

I physically get sick just thinking about these poor children.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 11:49 am
CJ, Most countries of the world have gone through wars and other economic woes where it's citizens were somewhat forced into prostitution to get shelter and eat, and that includes the US, Asia, and Europe. Selling of their own children for prostitution isn't better or worse than infanticide practiced in India and China (until recent times). It's not a new phenomenon by any means. Those Americans traveling down to Mexico to practice their psychotic sexual habits with children will continue if we understand anything about supply and demand no matter how many are caught. I'd like to see those SOBs pay with their life.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 12:01 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Trying to understand.


I only asked, because you wrote "The French".

I'm sure, these people don't even represent a minority of a minority in France - or anywhere.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 12:06 pm
Walter, I'm not sure of any numbers anywhere in this world concerning this topic.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 12:22 pm
The number of child victims in the recent Begium case(s) had been extraodinary higher.

I think, especially the French (and the Belgium) police is highly alarmed by that.

On the other site, here a quote from a British source ("Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary"):



Quote:
[More than four out of 10 forces surveyed by the inspectors had not included child protection in their most recent policing plan.]

"If the protection of children and the investigation of child abuse are to move from being a stated priority to an actual priority, they need to become clearly visible within policing plans."
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 03:01 pm
in canada there are/have been child porn/abuse cases before the courts. in a small city close by an abuse trial has been going on for years. it is claimed by some journalists that the abusers were highly placed people in the community (judges, senior police officials, priests) that were able to have the charges squashed. it's been going on for about ten years now; i wonder if it will ever be resolved.

but we have also had a very nasty case in western cnada where children were coerced by social workers and phychologists to give false testimony. in consequence the lives of several innocent people were ruined . to make matters worse the provincial department of justice refuses to exonerate the wrongly accused and has instead ordered a stay of prosecution (been going on for well over a year). there is no doubt in my mind that all must be done to stop child abuse and prostitution, but how can one be sure that innocent people will not be drawn into a case of false prosecution ? hbg
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 03:05 pm
hbg, Once charged as a child-molester, it's difficult to reverse on the innocent man or woman to clear their names. I'm wondering if the charges against Michael Jackson is such.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Mar, 2005 05:05 pm
The child poverty level in France is one of the lowest in the West according to UNICEF.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 12:30 am
Actually, France is in the upper third:
Quote:
Source
PDF-publication
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 09:58 am
I would say that "one of the lowest" includes "the upper third." Wink
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CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:35 pm
The debate now is if the trial should be open to the public
or closed.

What do you think: Should a trial with such magnitude be
open to the public?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Mar, 2005 11:56 pm
No. The OJ trial was a circus. Trials are supposed to be serious stuff without the need for the attorneys or judge to consider what they're saying to the camera.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 01:28 am
Quote:
France Faces Up to the Horror of Horrors

PA"


The colourful playgrounds and prim plantings of a French working class housing complex seems to have hidden a grim secret for years. Inside, prosecutors say, parents allegedly raped, abused and pimped their children - some not yet old enough to walk.

Well-maintained, modern and inviting, the three-story apartment buildings of the Saint-Leonard neighbourhood in the western town of Angers were designed to make life in low-income housing civilised.

But some of the residents who moved in after it opened in 1998 are accused of terrible acts.

Sixty-six people have gone on trial this week for crimes of paedophilia that have stunned France.

The case, coming on the heels of another high-profile paedophilia trial in northern France last year, has prompted renewed soul-searching about how people could sink so low in a country that prides itself as an economic and political leader of Europe.

Investigators say 45 children - aged from 6 months to 14 years - were abused by their parents or people close to them from 1999 to 2002, in some cases in exchange for small amounts of money, food, cigarettes or alcohol. A grandfather of some of the children allegedly filmed rapes and other abuse.

The trial's second day yesterday was devoted to presenting the more than 200 witnesses to the court.

In Angers, known for its medieval castle and Cointreau liquor, some residents refuse to accept that such crimes could be perpetrated in their midst, Angers' Deputy Mayor Michelle Moreau said.

"I've heard people say to me, 'But you know, these children were used to it,"' she said. "It's the horror of horror."

The trial is expected to last four months. But, getting over the horror could take far longer.

French newspapers in recent days have been full of questions by child psychologists and columnists asking how something so ghastly and so enormous could have gone undetected so long.

Part of the explanation was the tight-knit nature of the ring - husbands forced wives and parents forced children, lawyers said.

Three couples at the heart of the case lured their children and those of their friends, relatives and neighbours by saying they were going to "play doctor," the prosecution's 420-page legal filing charges. One girl was allegedly raped 45 times.

Alcoholism, poverty and, defence lawyers claim, a failure of social workers to spot signs of abuse may have played a role.

"The person I'm defending sits in the box next to his father, who is the perpetrator of sexual acts on him only years ago - and now is his accomplice," said Pascal Rouiller, an lawyer who represents five defendants.

Three of the main defendants were childhood friends who met while under the care of child psychologists, said defence attorney Patrick Decamps.

Some are said by their lawyers to be illiterate and Moreau, the deputy mayor, said some were already known to police.

"But in all sincerity, I never imagined that they were involved in paedophilia,", she said. "I do not know how to explain what happened."
Source
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 5 Mar, 2005 02:54 am
When the muslims take over in France they'll put a stop to that sort of bullshit....
0 Replies
 
 

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