1
   

Hard to understand the French

 
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:08 am
Right, but why do people of our culture (France, Germany) do this ... again (like it was done during the Medieval Ages/Early Modern Times?

(Not that I know or want an answer here and right now.)
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:12 am
What causes homosexuals? That most of these folks were also molested/raped in their youth might lead to some explanations, but I'm afraid not all. It might be "normal" from the standpoint of psychology. Who knows?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:14 am
There is no answer anyway. However, I would not limit
it to nationality, as we have seen cases in Belgium, GB,
the US, Thailand, and so on....

The question would be: Are these people born as pedophiles
or is it circumstantial?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:15 am
Nurture and nature. Genes and environment.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:16 am
CJ - speaking on this specific case, I dont believe that's implicit poorness that leads to sexual abuse of the children.(as social assistance is widely provided in France).

It's more the lack of education and understanding what's wrong. Goods and money are only a complement, as they would be assaulters anyway.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:20 am
Then I have a question Francis: Government assistance
for the poor is given in every country, however in the
US, it is striktly tied to food items. That means no cigarettes
and no liquor is included in the assistance.
Is this similar in France or do they get a certain amount of
Euro and can choose what to buy?
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:23 am
France dont provide food, but money and medical assistance. So you can infer what happens...
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:26 am
I'll go further : as caritative NGO provide food for those in the need and government provides money, people concerned can spend all the money in what they want.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:32 am
So in essence they could have bought cigarettes and other
items to indulge in their habits, and this could not have
been the reason alone for exploiting the children.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:35 am
As I said before, it's not poorness the main reason (at least I dont think so)...
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:36 am
(You got coupons here, generally, I think, and with those you can't buy cigarettes and liquor.)


The main point, IMHO, seems to be the lack of education and (thus?) not to know, what is wrong and why it is wrong.
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:39 am
Yes, Walter, what went wrong in learning this people what is wrong?
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:40 am
I know, in this particular case in France, the absence of
proper education is a huge factor in it, but what excuse
do other pedophiles have?

Where the people involved in the other incident in
Northern France last year, also uneducated people?
0 Replies
 
Francis
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 11:51 am
NO, CJ. That other case turned to be a huge masquerade with people telling their children to charge other people they dont like (false allegations).
There was indeed some facts concerning very few people but, in my view, that could happen anywhere in the world.
Most of the accused were released.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Mar, 2005 12:10 pm
I see! Either way it is utterly disturbing.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 25 Jul, 2005 12:48 am
Quote:
France awaits verdict on 65 defendants in child abuse case

By John Lichfield in Paris
Published: 25 July 2005

Verdicts are expected today in the largest, and one of the most horrific, child abuse trials ever conducted in France. After an 18-week trial, and a week in seclusion, the nine jurors and three judges are expected to pronounce today on the guilt or innocence of 65 people accused of prostituting and sexually abusing 45 children aged from six months to 12 years old.

The accused - many of whom deny all the charges - include several parents, and grandparents, who are alleged to have prostituted their children for small amounts of money, food, cigarettes and, in one case, a new tyre.

The jury, and three professional magistrates, have been sequestered for a week while they consider 1,972 counts of rape, sexual abuse and profiting from prostitution against the 65 accused, who include 26 women. The trial, in Angers, on the river Loire, has exposed a marginal world of alcoholism and social and educational deprivation on the outskirts of a pretty town in one of the most visited parts of France. Most of the accused are unemployed. Many are unable to read or write. Several were themselves the victims of sexual abuse as children. A grandfather, who abused his son as a child, is alleged to have taken part in and filmed the sexual abuse of his son's children.

Several of the alleged "clients" of the paedophile prostitution ring have previous convictions for similar offences. Questions were asked during the trial - and will be again after the verdicts - about how the alleged abuse could have continued for three years. Two of the families at the heart of the trial were being visited by social services.

The outcome will also be a test of the ability of the French judicial system to mount mass prosecutions of this kind and bring them to a successful conclusion. A smaller, but similarly harrowing trial of an alleged paedophile ring in the town of Outreau, near Boulogne, last year ended in a fiasco. The evidence, based on statements by children and experts, was flimsy or confused.

In the Angers trial most evidence has come from a handful of defendants, who admitted their guilt and pointed the finger at other family members or "clients". But some changed their story and denied everything during the trial.

During the 93 days of evidence, defence lawyers complained on several occasions that there was little firm evidence against many of the accused. They said that a "mass trial" of this kind threatened a miscarriage of justice.

Maître Pascal Rouiller said: "We fear that there will be a kind of collective guilt ... It will be very hard for the jurors to decide which of so many individuals are guilty or not."

Verdicts are expected today in the largest, and one of the most horrific, child abuse trials ever conducted in France. After an 18-week trial, and a week in seclusion, the nine jurors and three judges are expected to pronounce today on the guilt or innocence of 65 people accused of prostituting and sexually abusing 45 children aged from six months to 12 years old.

The accused - many of whom deny all the charges - include several parents, and grandparents, who are alleged to have prostituted their children for small amounts of money, food, cigarettes and, in one case, a new tyre.

The jury, and three professional magistrates, have been sequestered for a week while they consider 1,972 counts of rape, sexual abuse and profiting from prostitution against the 65 accused, who include 26 women. The trial, in Angers, on the river Loire, has exposed a marginal world of alcoholism and social and educational deprivation on the outskirts of a pretty town in one of the most visited parts of France. Most of the accused are unemployed. Many are unable to read or write. Several were themselves the victims of sexual abuse as children. A grandfather, who abused his son as a child, is alleged to have taken part in and filmed the sexual abuse of his son's children.

Several of the alleged "clients" of the paedophile prostitution ring have previous convictions for similar offences. Questions were asked during the trial - and will be again after the verdicts - about how the alleged abuse could have continued for three years. Two of the families at the heart of the trial were being visited by social services.
The outcome will also be a test of the ability of the French judicial system to mount mass prosecutions of this kind and bring them to a successful conclusion. A smaller, but similarly harrowing trial of an alleged paedophile ring in the town of Outreau, near Boulogne, last year ended in a fiasco. The evidence, based on statements by children and experts, was flimsy or confused.

In the Angers trial most evidence has come from a handful of defendants, who admitted their guilt and pointed the finger at other family members or "clients". But some changed their story and denied everything during the trial.

During the 93 days of evidence, defence lawyers complained on several occasions that there was little firm evidence against many of the accused. They said that a "mass trial" of this kind threatened a miscarriage of justice.

Maître Pascal Rouiller said: "We fear that there will be a kind of collective guilt ... It will be very hard for the jurors to decide which of so many individuals are guilty or not."
Source
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 27 Jul, 2005 11:47 pm
Quote:
Sixty-two convicted in child sex abuse case that horrified France

By John Lichfield in Paris
Published: 28 July 2005

After the largest, longest and most horrific child abuse trial seen in France, 62 people have been convicted of raping, prostituting, molesting or failing to protect 45 children as young as six months old.

The four-month trial in Angers, on the river Loire, has appalled France and raised unanswered questions about the failure of police, social and parole workers to prevent the intense suffering inflicted on children and babies. The crimes allegedly took place between January 1999 and February 2002 in Angers's Saint-Leonard district.

Many of the accused, aged between 27 and 73 - including 26 women - were parents or grandparents of the abused children from a score of families in "sink" council estates. They took part in the sexual assaults themselves or accepted small payments, including cigarettes, drink and food, for use of their children.

Of the 65 accused, only three - who faced relatively minor charges - were acquitted. Another one was found guilty of a lesser crime but was given no punishment. The others were given sentences ranging from four months to 28 years in jail.

More than half of those convicted were unemployed. Many had been abused themselves as children. Many were illiterate but their "clients" included a local journalist, who was jailed for a year.

The man said to be the brutal driving force behind the network - named only as Eric J, 37 - was sent to jail for 28 years, with a recommendation that he serve at least 18 years behind bars. Described by the prosecution as "an ogre" and known to the children as "the fatty", Eric J was a convicted paedophile who had ignored parole conditions after being released from jail in 1999.

Parole and police officers failed to track him, even after part of his new paedophile prostitution network in Angers had been dismantled in 2001. His own four children were among those repeatedly raped and abused. One 12-year-old girl was said to have been raped 45 times.

Two of the other ring-leaders - Franck V and his wife, Patricia M - were given 18 and 16-year jail sentences. Patricia was found guilty of raping one of her own daughters and prostituting 11 children; Franck was found guilty of 14 counts of child rape.

Their family flat in a small block of council flats on the outskirts of Angers was said to be the scene of most of the incidents of rape and prostitution, involving 23 families - most of them supposedly under the supervision of social workers.

In almost all cases, the surnames of the convicted adults cannot be published in order to protect the identity of their children.

Both Franck and Patricia - said to have been the "treasurer" of the group - had themselves been abused as children or teenagers. In the case of Franck V, he had been prostituted at 17 by his down-and-out father. This man - Philippe V, 73 - also took part in the abuse of Franck's children. He was sentenced to 28 years in prison, with a recommendation that he should serve 18 years behind bars.

The testimony - which took 93 days spread over 18 weeks - was often confused and contradictory.

Several people said they saw Franck V raping his own children. One woman said he continued even when they called out "stop daddy, you're hurting me". Franck denied he abused his children, but accused his wife and father of doing so.

Asked by the president of the court why he had allowed his father to abuse his children after being a victim himself, Franck V said: "I didn't accept it. Either I killed [my father] or I stayed paralysed. In the end, I fled."

Another defendant, Jean-Marc J - also a previous offender - was given a 26-year sentence for three counts of rape.

A defence lawyer, Maître Pascal Rouiller, summing up earlier this month, said: "Out of 23 families involved, 21 were being monitored by social services. How is it that nothing was seen? There were 15 social workers calling on the family V. The [mother and father] were declared incapable of protecting the children in 1999. What happened? Lots of meetings and then nothing."

After the largest, longest and most horrific child abuse trial seen in France, 62 people have been convicted of raping, prostituting, molesting or failing to protect 45 children as young as six months old.

The four-month trial in Angers, on the river Loire, has appalled France and raised unanswered questions about the failure of police, social and parole workers to prevent the intense suffering inflicted on children and babies. The crimes allegedly took place between January 1999 and February 2002 in Angers's Saint-Leonard district.

Many of the accused, aged between 27 and 73 - including 26 women - were parents or grandparents of the abused children from a score of families in "sink" council estates. They took part in the sexual assaults themselves or accepted small payments, including cigarettes, drink and food, for use of their children.

Of the 65 accused, only three - who faced relatively minor charges - were acquitted. Another one was found guilty of a lesser crime but was given no punishment. The others were given sentences ranging from four months to 28 years in jail.

More than half of those convicted were unemployed. Many had been abused themselves as children. Many were illiterate but their "clients" included a local journalist, who was jailed for a year.

The man said to be the brutal driving force behind the network - named only as Eric J, 37 - was sent to jail for 28 years, with a recommendation that he serve at least 18 years behind bars. Described by the prosecution as "an ogre" and known to the children as "the fatty", Eric J was a convicted paedophile who had ignored parole conditions after being released from jail in 1999.

Parole and police officers failed to track him, even after part of his new paedophile prostitution network in Angers had been dismantled in 2001. His own four children were among those repeatedly raped and abused. One 12-year-old girl was said to have been raped 45 times.

Two of the other ring-leaders - Franck V and his wife, Patricia M - were given 18 and 16-year jail sentences. Patricia was found guilty of raping one of her own daughters and prostituting 11 children; Franck was found guilty of 14 counts of child rape.
Their family flat in a small block of council flats on the outskirts of Angers was said to be the scene of most of the incidents of rape and prostitution, involving 23 families - most of them supposedly under the supervision of social workers.

In almost all cases, the surnames of the convicted adults cannot be published in order to protect the identity of their children.

Both Franck and Patricia - said to have been the "treasurer" of the group - had themselves been abused as children or teenagers. In the case of Franck V, he had been prostituted at 17 by his down-and-out father. This man - Philippe V, 73 - also took part in the abuse of Franck's children. He was sentenced to 28 years in prison, with a recommendation that he should serve 18 years behind bars.

The testimony - which took 93 days spread over 18 weeks - was often confused and contradictory.

Several people said they saw Franck V raping his own children. One woman said he continued even when they called out "stop daddy, you're hurting me". Franck denied he abused his children, but accused his wife and father of doing so.

Asked by the president of the court why he had allowed his father to abuse his children after being a victim himself, Franck V said: "I didn't accept it. Either I killed [my father] or I stayed paralysed. In the end, I fled."

Another defendant, Jean-Marc J - also a previous offender - was given a 26-year sentence for three counts of rape.

A defence lawyer, Maître Pascal Rouiller, summing up earlier this month, said: "Out of 23 families involved, 21 were being monitored by social services. How is it that nothing was seen? There were 15 social workers calling on the family V. The [mother and father] were declared incapable of protecting the children in 1999. What happened? Lots of meetings and then nothing."
Source
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 28 Jul, 2005 12:11 am
Cases such as the one currently in the news in France have occurred in the United States and likely every major European nation ... and beyond. A few become sensational because of the numbers involved: others for different reasons. This is a sad manifestation of the evils that can lurk within all societies and potentially in all individuals. They are no more characteristic of France than is breathing or eating.
0 Replies
 
 

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