maxdancona
 
  -3  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 09:24 pm
The Koko environmental video... where Koko is wildly gesticulating, and the subtitles are giving a political message... remind me of the "Hitler Downfall videos". Same idea, the subtitles are made up.


0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 09:35 pm
Whether or not you find me funny is a matter of indifference to me. I certainly don't get angry over a non-entity like you. I invite you to quote the portions of the material I linked which contradicts my point of view. I came to my point of view from reading abstracts of papers, and examining the methodology as reported in a variety of print sources. If you want to get all "sciency" on me, provide links to reliable sources which show that the work with Kanzi and with Alex the parrot, and Betsy the border collie was not methodologically sound. So far, you've provided nothing but your snotty opinions.
Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 09:37 pm
As GB pointed out, you just showed up to rain on the parade. You have provided zero evidence for your position, just your opinions. I know you think that you're Mr. Science, but it may dismay you to find out that others don't agree. Now that you've trashed the thread, something you do again and again on a host of subjects, how about putting up . . . or shutting up.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 09:51 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Whether or not you find me funny is a matter of indifference to me. I certainly don't get angry over a non-entity like you


If it was a "matter of indifference" to you, you wouldn't be writing repeated insulting posts about how you are not getting angry. I hope you are able to step back and see the humor in your own posts.
Setanta
 
  2  
Mon 25 Jun, 2018 11:16 pm
@maxdancona,
I await your effort to support the claims you have made. For example, you still have not shown that any material in the links I provided contradicts what I have said. As for a sense of humor, I have never seen you to exhibit one.
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  5  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 06:03 am
Setanta wrote:

Whether or not you find me funny is a matter of indifference to me ...I certainly don't get angry over a non-entity like you ... I came to my point of view from reading abstracts of papers... I know you think that you're Mr. Science, but it may dismay you to find out that others don't agree ...

I await your effort to support the claims you have made. For example, you still have not shown that any material in the links I provided contradicts what I have said. As for a sense of humor, I have never seen you to exhibit one.


Setanta. If you don't want to discuss both sides of the Koko story, then why are you responding to my posts? You can either just skip by most posts, or you can push that little ignore button. Instead you are turning this thread into a thread about yourself.

Koko is a cultural phenomenon. Koko is also scientifically questionable. The posts I made on this thread are relevant to the Koko story.

I am not the only person talking about both sides of the story. Here is your link. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-44576449

I am sorry I offended you. Every post I made on this thread is relevant to the Koko story except maybe for the comparison to the Downfall videos, but that was in response to the video someone else posted about Koko's environmental video.

There are two sides to this story. Chomsky and Pinker (leading experts in the field) refute the claims about Koko (and Washoe and Nim et al.). This other side of the story is perfectly relevant.

No, Setanta, I do not owe you anything. This thread is about Koko. It is not about you. This happens all of the time with you, you only want one side of the story to be expressed... and you attack anyone who dares to express the other side.

I don't want to be talking about you, Setanta. This thread is about Koko.






0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -1  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 06:32 am
I am attempting to talk about Koko, and that's a load of typical internet bullsh*t to claim I am making this thread about myself. In fact, I am talking about you, and your obsessive need to trash threads on little or no basis other than your personal conceits. You don't want to talk about both sides of the story, you just want to bully your way in here shouting about how it's all a load of hogwash. Until now, you have provided no evidence for your claims. You still have not supported your claim that the pages I linked contradict what I've said. As for Chomsky, he is a questionable "authority" whose claims about linguistics are far from the majority opinion of academic linguists. He is far more a political ranter and darling of young radicals. If you read carefully the link you provided you will see that it is journalists who have claimed that Koko "mastered" ASL--there is a point to be made that she was able to communicate. You have not addressed Kanzi, who communicates with a touch screen, making what he "says" far less ambiguous. You haven't addressed the subject of Alex, the African gray parrot. You haven't addressed the subject of Betsy, the long-haired border collie.

In fact, all that you've done is attempt to make this thread about you. You have a long history here of trashing all manner of threads, usually because of your obsessions with certain topics. The threads you start are about picking fights with people if you can. You don't even make the effort to read an understand the threads that other people start. I started a thread about attacks on science, and you came in there, convinced yourself that I was denying climate change and global warming--neither of which was true--and ended by claiming that I had attacked science, but that you had "defeated" me.

You're a classic troll, and you're one of the true low spots at this site. I'm still waiting to see you back up your claims about what I've posted, and about how I was contradicted by the links I provided. You've already trashed a harmless thread with your phony Mr. Science routine, so don't attempt to claim that I'm the problem here.

Put up or shut up.
maxdancona
 
  3  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 06:52 am
@Setanta,
You are being ridiculous Setanta. I am here to talk about the Koko phenomenon. You are making self-righteous rants. I see no need to get into these mud-slinging contests with you, I am only responding to you because you are getting personal.

Grow up.


Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 07:02 am
@maxdancona,
Grow up from you? That's rich. You are here to rant and stomp around and make the thread about yourself. You don't want to "get in the mud?" Translation: Mr. Science can't back up the claims he's made.

You're already trashed the thread, and you came to rant about bad science, without actually backing up that claim. Put up of shut up. I'm not foolish enough to enjoin you to grow up--that's not going to happen.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 07:04 am
@Setanta,
Setanta, this is a thread about Koko.

I will stop if you will.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  -2  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 07:18 am
It was supposed to be about Koko--until you showed up with your Mr. Science routine.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 10:20 am
@Setanta,
Best not to engage eh. Unless you're having fun with it.
ehBeth
 
  4  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 10:26 am
@jespah,
Fare thee well, Koko.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/2018/06/21/koko-gorilla-dies-sign-language/#.WzJoORen_IU

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/d-brief/files/2018/06/Screen-Shot-2018-06-21-at-12.23.48-PM.jpg

http://www.koko.org/sign-language


__


teach yer kids to sign
it's amazing what you can learn from them before they can speak
0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  0  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 11:35 am
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Best not to engage eh. Unless you're having fun with it.


Thank you EhBeth! Maybe Setanta will be able to hear it from you. You know how angry he gets Wink.
Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 01:30 pm
@maxdancona,
That anger meme is for internet morons. You have not supported any of your specious claims that the articles I linked contradicted me. You have not posted any evidence from a reliable source that the methodology in any of these animal communication studies is flawed . . . Mr. Science.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 01:32 pm
@Setanta,
There you go EhBeth..... he won't even listen to you. I guess he just can't help himself. Does he realize that he is getting all bent out of shape over a talking gorilla?

This quixotic quest to rid the internet of morons isn't good for him.


0 Replies
 
maxdancona
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 01:47 pm
@Setanta,
Sorry Setanta. I am not interested in fighting with you. I expressed my opinion about the Koko phenomenon on a thread about Koko. Obviously it upset you. You can demand evidence all you want. You ignore the links I have already posted, why would I keep trying? You are trying to shut down discussion.

What if you were right and everyone else was a moron? That still wouldn't give you the right to control which opinions are expressed.




maxdancona
 
  -1  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 01:59 pm
This is a weird part of the story from Slate.

Quote:
By the time she was in her 20s, for example, Koko had begun to show signs of nipple fetish. In 2005, Kendra Keller and Nancy Alperin, who had been employed by the Gorilla Foundation the previous year, took Patterson [the lead reasearcher] to court because, they alleged, “Patterson instructed Keller and Alperin to engage in the sexual act of removing their clothing to expose their breasts to Koko, in particular, their nipples.” The lawsuit alleged that in response to signing from Koko, Patterson pressured Keller and Alperin to flash the ape. “Oh, yes, Koko, Nancy has nipples. Nancy can show you her nipples,” Patterson reportedly said on one occasion. And on another: “Koko, you see my nipples all the time. You are probably bored with my nipples. You need to see new nipples. I will turn my back so Kendra can show you her nipples.”


The suit was settled out of court a few months later, sparing the court system the indignity of figuring out how to administer an oath to a gorilla. But the story is nevertheless crucial to understanding the arc of the scientific field of animal linguistics and Koko’s place within it.


https://slate.com/technology/2018/06/koko-the-ape-obituaries-are-overlooking-her-nipple-fetish-and-other-important-things.html
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 07:37 pm
@maxdancona,
No, it did not upset me. In fact, I find your Mr. Science routine hilarious. You have posted one link, and I didn't ignore, I responded to it. You have, however, made a claim that the links I posted contradicted what I said, but you have not shown that to be the case. I'm not "demanding"--I'm pointing out the evidentiary poverty of your rantings. It is you who are attempting to control what opinions are expressed.
maxdancona
 
  0  
Tue 26 Jun, 2018 07:44 pm
@Setanta,
That's a relief Setanta. I thought you were upset.

That makes me happy to know you don't mind me posting my opinions. I wish you would hold back on calling people "morons", but other than that I don't mind your opinions. I realize I can't control how you behave here anyway. I am glad that at least I amuse you.

So we are all good then I guess.
 

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