Re: Arrogant American Universalism and the Middle East
IronLionZion wrote: You ask "If those Middle Eastern countries don't value these concepts on thier own they why would they be applying for loans and/or grants throiugh the World Bank and IMF?" I would have thought the answer to this question was obvious. First of all, they apply for the loans because they need the money.
If their preferred econimic system isn't under the same basic value system then they'd have no need for the money from the IMF or World Bank. They also have the option of going to other International (or private) bodies that have no such requirements.
Quote: Many developing nations feel they need these loans, and because these organizations are heavily influenced by a handful of Western nations, those nations use that leverage to promote thier economic values and interests.
Standard Catch 22. The countries are influenced by the World Bank and IMF which only has the ability to influence nations if those nations go to them. If those countries don't go to the IMF or World Bank then those institutions have no influence. Who makes the initial move? The nation seeking the money or the World Bank and IMF?
Quote: Secondly, the IMF and World Bank are supposed to be international non-political organizations: meaning that they are not supposed to have any hidden agenda. So your premise that nations should only apply for loans if they agree with certain economic values is flawed, because the World Bank and IMF are not supposed to be involved in promoting economic values in the first place.
You had better go read up on the purpose of the IMF again. From the IMF's Homepage:
The purposes of the International Monetary Fund are:
(i) To promote international monetary cooperation through a permanent institution which provides the machinery for consultation and collaboration on international monetary problems.
(ii) To facilitate the expansion and balanced growth of international trade, and to contribute thereby to the promotion and maintenance of high levels of employment and real income and to the development of the productive resources of all members as primary objectives of economic policy.
(iii) To promote exchange stability, to maintain orderly exchange arrangements among members, and to avoid competitive exchange depreciation.
(iv) To assist in the establishment of a multilateral system of payments in respect of current transactions between members and in the elimination of foreign exchange restrictions which hamper the growth of world trade.
(v) To give confidence to members by making the general resources of the Fund temporarily available to them under adequate safeguards, thus providing them with opportunity to correct maladjustments in their balance of payments without resorting to measures destructive of national or international prosperity.
(vi) In accordance with the above, to shorten the duration and lessen the degree of disequilibrium in the international balances of payments of members.
Every one of those items from their statement of purpose is a statement of a value with overall values of free trade and global economic stablity and if there is anyone that believes that "monetary cooperation", "international trade", "employment", "development of the productive resources", etc.. aren't all political issues then I have a bridge to sell them.
The World Bank's purpose from their WWW site:
What is the World Bank
The World Bank Group is one of the world's largest sources of development assistance. In fiscal year 2002, the institution provided US$19.5 billion in loans to its client countries. It works in more than 100 developing economies with the primary focus of helping the poorest people and the poorest countries. For all its clients the Bank emphasizes the need for:
- Investing in people, particularly through basic health and education
- Focusing on social development, inclusion, governance, and institution-
building as key elements of poverty reduction
- Strengthening the ability of the governments to deliver quality services,
efficiently and transparently
- Protecting the environment
- Supporting and encouraging private business development
- Promoting reforms to create a stable macroeconomic environment,
conducive to investment and long-term planning
Again, each statment expresses a value towards economic policy and again, issues like "health", "education", goverenment delivery of services", "environment" and a "macroeconomic environment, conducive to investment and long-term planning" aren't political they are only fooling themselves.
All of this is straight off of both organizations Web sites. Where is the "hidden agenda"? It seems to be hiding in plain sight.
Quote: In other words there are not supposed to be any "handouts" with economic values as "strings attached."
The purposes of both organizations clearly state otherwise. No where does either group claim to be a charity.
Quote:Now, unlike some people, I will actually support my opinion,
The IMF and the World bank are supposed to be international, non-political and purely economic organizations.
And as shown, your opinion is based on several false views of what the World Bank and IMF are.
Quote:You did not point out that we adopted these values FROM the Middle East, and if you did, then you are wrong. I can see where your coming from though and I admit that many of the economic values of modern Western civilization originated in, or were present in, historical Middle East.
Ummm.. Yeah.. So I'm wrong but you admit you can see where I'm right..
Quote: But surely you can see the difference between historical trade methods in the Middle East and modern economic values on an international scale. The bottom line is that they do not share some of our economic values and America is trying to impose them.
You are mixing issues here. I never said anything about METHODS. I addressed VALUES.
Quote:A word of advice, do not be so haughty as to dismiss someones arguments as disdainfully as you have. You give the impression that other peoples viewpoints are silly and stupid yet you do not support your opinion. Especially when you casually throw around accusations of paradoxes, say i am trying to slither out of debate, and make bold assumptions like "your logic chain is broken." I know that what i said isn't the definitive truth and I am open to changing my stance if i am persuaded otherwise. People will respect you more if you retain a little humility. :wink:
If you view someone referring to something you say as a "paradox" to be disdainful and are so thin-skinned as to take that as an insult then I have a bit of advice for you. Shut off your computer, get off the Internet and go hide in a closet. You asked for debate and I pointed out some weaknesses in your stated position. Claims of being attacked when someone presents any opposition to your stated opinion isn't debate or discussion. It's crying. If I choose to insult you it wouldn't be so pretty and you'll know it.
