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What's wrong with finding comfort in religion?

 
 
almach1
 
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 11:26 am
I'll agree that reason and religion really don't go together, especially when you begin to try to explain it's roots and creators. But I find my self feel extremely alone and sad when I think that I will cease to exist when I die. It's sad to think that if an asteroid takes out the earth and every human with it, nobody will care. It will just be quiet and full of nothing just as it was before we existed.

I know that this may be a fact, but what's wrong with believing that maybe there is an afterlife. What's wrong with believing that maybe I have to be a good person to get there.

If we are really just energy, atoms and our feelings really are just chemical reactions in our brains then what's the point. Do athiests believe in LOVE? I think love is no more provable than religion. I know it might be just chemicals in my brain, but I find beauty in believing it's something greater.

For those of you who are athiests: what drives you do do great things in life. Why do you strive to be a model citizen?
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Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 11:30 am
They way I see it is if I am right about Heaven and God, things will be good when I die. If I am wrong.....so what? I'll be dead.

Nothing wrong with spirituality.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 12:41 pm
Quote:
For those of you who are athiests: what drives you do do great things in life. Why do you strive to be a model citizen?



I have a code of conduct that I have internalized. The the origins of this code were from my parents, but it has been modified as I have matured.

My basic raison d'etre springs from a corollary of the Golden Rule.

"The right to swing your arm ends at the other fellow's nose".

I attempt to be the best person that I can be, but I do it for MY pleasure, and the pleasure of those that I love and/or care for. I have no concern for some netherworldly deity. The entire concept has no meaning for me.

If I do something of which I believe is not right, I feel the guilt internally, and strive to correct those actions/thoughts that led me to go against what I believe is important in life. I need no threat of a god's contempt. My own contempt is sufficient to put me back on the right path.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 12:47 pm
I do not want to buy myself comfort at the expense of endorsing bad logic, i.e. the so-called evidence for the existence of God. I would rather know the truth no matter how unpleasant.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 12:50 pm
There is nothing wrong with finding comfort in religion.
There is nothing wrong with believing a religion is the right religion
There is nothing wrong in believing there is an afterlife.

I think the ultimate question/answer is
Does it feel right to you? If so then good.
Does it feel wrong to you? If so then stop.

I think what alot of athiest really HATE is when people attempt to rule, control, and enforce thier religion on other people. Religion is a personal choice. Not made by others, and shouldnt be judged by others.
Unfortunatly that happens alot.
IMO - if people feel the need to ' spread thier religion' and convert those who do not follow a particular faith, that shows insecurities in thier choices of religion.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 12:53 pm
I believe that there is no sound argument leading to belief that a God exists, and I am unwilling to buy myself comfort by accepting or endorsing bad logic.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 12:57 pm
Brandon9000 wrote:
I believe that there is no sound argument leading to belief that a God exists, and I am unwilling to buy myself comfort by accepting or endorsing bad logic.


True, but on the other hand, as long as it does not affect MY life, I have no problem with people believing what they choose. IMO, I have no right to tell people what to believe, just as I think that they have no right to tell me what to believe.

Where it gets sticky, (and right now, it is about as sticky as warm taffy) is when people attempt to pass laws, (that WOULD affect my life) based on little more than their own particular religious beliefs. I think that is an abomination.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:03 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Brandon9000 wrote:
I believe that there is no sound argument leading to belief that a God exists, and I am unwilling to buy myself comfort by accepting or endorsing bad logic.


True, but on the other hand, as long as it does not affect MY life, I have no problem with people believing what they choose. IMO, I have no right to tell people what to believe, just as I think that they have no right to tell me what to believe.

Where it gets sticky, (and right now, it is about as sticky as warm taffy) is when people attempt to pass laws, (that WOULD affect my life) based on little more than their own particular religious beliefs. I think that is an abomination.

Certainly the laws must not attempt to establish or promote religion, since the Constitution quite properly forbids this, but as far as laws unrelated to religion itself go, I don't see anything more wrong with someone introducing or supporting laws based on his own religious beliefs, than with him doing so based on his own moral beliefs.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:13 pm
Quote:
I don't see anything more wrong with someone introducing or supporting laws based on his own religious beliefs, than with him doing so based on his own moral beliefs.


Brandon9000- But what if the laws interfere with the rights of people who do not believe as he does?

Abortion is the example which comes to mind, but since it is such a hot potato, I will stay away from it for the purpose of this thread.

OK, for example, the Catholic church does not believe in contraception. Suppose a group of Catholic lawmakers decide to introduce a bill that would make the dispensing of contraceptive devices illegal. For argument's sake, the bill passed. All people, whether Catholic or not, would no longer be able to purchase condoms, IUDs, birth control pills, or other contraceptive paraphrenalia. In this case, the tenets of particular religion is foisted on people who do not believe in that faith.

Except by degree, in concept, how different is that from the sharia laws in some Muslim countries?
0 Replies
 
almach1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:23 pm
shewolfnm wrote:
Ther

I think what alot of athiest really HATE is when people attempt to rule, control, and enforce thier religion on other people. Religion is a personal choice. Not made by others, and shouldnt be judged by others.
Unfortunatly that happens alot.
IMO - if people feel the need to ' spread thier religion' and convert those who do not follow a particular faith, that shows insecurities in thier choices of religion.


Athiests hate it when people try to to impose religion upon them. I can understand that, since i also agree with this statement. I just pick up this arrogant tone in athiests voices when they talk bad about people who have religion. They somehow think they are smarter becasue they point to scientific evidence as our reason for being enlightened. People act as if there are no people who are educated in the sciences who also happen to be religious.

I learned evolution in high school(as all kids should), I took geology, astronomy, chemistry, physics, and anthropology, in college. I know there is evidence against religion. I know the facts and i also would rather know the truth, than to be blind to it.

I never thought i would be defending religion. I have always been that kind of person who bashes people for blindly following anthing.
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galois
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:23 pm
Re: What's wrong with finding comfort in religion?
almach1 wrote:
but I find beauty in believing it's something greater.


One can be an atheist and still believe in something bigger. How about this marvelous system, this awe-inspiring and continually self re-inventive process we call life? We might write a moving tribute to it along the lines of:

A billion years of evolution, of eating and of being eaten, of screwing and of being screwed.

Now *that* is big. And we are part of It! OK, this process may not be said to *love* us, but we are most certainly *of* It; we are It's product, made in It's image, made by It's rules, for whatever mysterious purpose It might have. And yet It is made *of* us, and we shall forever be part of It's rich tapestry. I am continually humbled by Its resiliance and Its power; It is surely by far the most wonderful thing in Science's rich and fruitful universe.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:28 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
I don't see anything more wrong with someone introducing or supporting laws based on his own religious beliefs, than with him doing so based on his own moral beliefs.


Brandon9000- But what if the laws interfere with the rights of people who do not believe as he does?

Yes, but this is equally true of anyone who supports a law or its revocation based on moral beliefs that another may not share. What's the difference?
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:30 pm
Quote:
One can be an atheist and still believe in something bigger.


galois- Welcome to A2K! Very Happy

But of course. I think that there are many things that human beings do not yet understand. What I reject is a supernatural, unknowable entity. I also can't imagine that us humans, with all our frailties, are at the top of the evolutionary heap.

A beautiful cloud can send my senses reeling. The grandeur of a mountain peak fills me with joy. The hum of people going about their daily business in a big city, to me, is exhilarating. Yes, science IS grand, and the more that we learn, the more that we realize just how great it is!
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almach1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:32 pm
Phoenix32890 wrote:
Quote:
I don't see anything more wrong with someone introducing or supporting laws based on his own religious beliefs, than with him doing so based on his own moral beliefs.


Brandon9000- But what if the laws interfere with the rights of people who do not believe as he does?

Abortion is the example which comes to mind, but since it is such a hot potato, I will stay away from it for the purpose of this thread.

OK, for example, the Catholic church does not believe in contraception. Suppose a group of Catholic lawmakers decide to introduce a bill that would make the dispensing of contraceptive devices illegal. For argument's sake, the bill passed. All people, whether Catholic or not, would no longer be able to purchase condoms, IUDs, birth control pills, or other contraceptive paraphrenalia. In this case, the tenets of particular religion is foisted on people who do not believe in that faith.

Except by degree, in concept, how different is that from the sharia laws in some Muslim countries?


I think Brandon9000's statement is solid. I think that morals don't always come from religion, but sometimes they do. Just because they come from religion doesn't mean we should throw them out the window. I think the problem with the hypothitical contraceptive situation is that it would be promoting a specific religion (catholic) like Brandon said.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:34 pm
almach1 wrote:


I never thought i would be defending religion. I have always been that kind of person who bashes people for blindly following anthing.



you and me both. ;-)
that is why I never address science when talking about religion. That opens a whole new can of worms that is sometimes drowning!
I am not christian or any other popular mainstream religion. But I think that if someone wants to add science to thier reasonings wether pro or against religion then they can do so. But the fact is that noone has died and lived to tell about what happens afterwords.
Science or not, people believe what they choose to believe no matter how colored or tainted the logic.
I agree with both Phoenix and Brandon.. but I leave room for others to follow blindly.. or follow with education. So long as it stays off my porch , and out of my life.
I dont really think there is anything BAD about finding religion, or blind faith.
What I find BAD about it, is the behaviors that emerge AFTER the blind faith is consumed.. the converting of people' , ' preaching' , ' making laws that reflect GOD's decisions' etc...
That is where I find the problem.
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Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:38 pm
almach1 wrote:
I think the problem with the hypothitical contraceptive situation is that it would be promoting a specific religion (catholic) like Brandon said.

Sorry, I didn't say that. I believe only that laws literally establishing or promoting religion are improper, and nothing to do with contraception is in that category.
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Rex the Wonder Squirrel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:39 pm
Quote:
I do not want to buy myself comfort at the expense of endorsing bad logic, i.e. the so-called evidence for the existence of God.


It's not "bad logic". It's just logic-- those who believe in it think it as true, agnostics don't believe there's enough of it to prove anything, and atheists don't believe in it at all.

Quote:
I believe that there is no sound argument leading to belief that a God exists, and I am unwilling to buy myself comfort by accepting or endorsing bad logic.


And I believe that there is no sound argument leading to the belief that a God doesn't exist, therefore I am unwilling to buy myself comfort by accepting or endorsing that logic.

But that doesn't make it "bad logic". I have some very intelligent friends who are evolutionists, and we all discuss religious-type matters (quite frequently, I'm afraid Razz), and we all use sound logic in doing so. But eventually we end up coming to the conclusion that we cannot fully prove either of our sides-- that is, I can come up with all of the evidence I can find but never scientifically prove without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt that there is a God, and that they can come up with all of the evidence they can find but never scientifically prove without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt that there isn't a God.

Quote:
as long as it does not affect MY life, I have no problem with people believing what they choose.


That's where everything gets really sticky. If I were to show up on your doorstep completely naked, would you have a problem with that? What if I was a public school teacher, and I taught your kids in school that way? It's my choice, right? And if you say it affects you (or your children, in that situation), how so?

The problem is, just about everything someone does affects someone else. Without a strict moral code, the line between "decent" and "indecent" in the sense of "affecting someone else" is quite blurry. That's where I find humanists at flaw-- "we can do what we want, as long as it's right by our standards, which we set"...well who's the "we"? Society? Maybe I believe it's OK to murder...why does the "standard" in society not include my beliefs? Because it affects other people? So does the image of a homosexual couple walking down the street...where's the difference?

See, it gets real sticky.
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Phoenix32890
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:42 pm
Quote:
I think the problem with the hypothitical contraceptive situation is that it would be promoting a specific religion (catholic) like Brandon said.


almach1- Aha- But what about something like abortion. (grr....I didn't want to get into this) The only difference between adherents of abortion control, and adherents of not using artificial means of contraception, is a matter of numbers of people involved. The concept is exactly the same.

My view on this would be, that if you don't think that contraception is moral, it is your right not to use it. If you don't think that abortion is moral, don't have one. But don't attempt to foist your religious belief on someone who does not believe as you do.
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shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:42 pm
Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:


That's where everything gets really sticky. If I were to show up on your doorstep completely naked, would you have a problem with that? What if I was a public school teacher, and I taught your kids in school that way? It's my choice, right? And if you say it affects you (or your children, in that situation), how so?

The problem is, just about everything someone does affects someone else. Without a strict moral code, the line between "decent" and "indecent" in the sense of "affecting someone else" is quite blurry. That's where I find humanists at flaw-- "we can do what we want, as long as it's right by our standards, which we set"...well who's the "we"? Society? Maybe I believe it's OK to murder...why does the "standard" in society not include my beliefs? Because it affects other people? So does the image of a homosexual couple walking down the street...where's the difference?

See, it gets real sticky.




VERY good point.....
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:43 pm
Rex the Wonder Squirrel wrote:
And I believe that there is no sound argument leading to the belief that a God doesn't exist, therefore I am unwilling to buy myself comfort by accepting or endorsing that logic.

Well, very cute, but this is some of the bad logic I was referring to. I agree that there is no sound argument leading to the belief that a God doesn't exist. However, the fact that you cannot disprove something is not sufficient reasonable basis to believe that it's true (or false, of course). I can't prove that there isn't an alien spacecraft with 14 little purple men orbiting the solar system at a distance of 13.4 astronomical units from the sun and observing us, but that is hardly sufficient logical justification to believe that there is.
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