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Does Religion Have a Place in the Future of Humankind?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 05:29 pm
headofthefield wrote:
There is a lot of misunderstandings going on here.


My friend, we most certainly agree on that.

You and Thunder are misunderstanding damn near everything.

I understand your motives...and I sympathize with you. Trying to appease this demon god of yours is a full time job...and torturing logic simply has to be used.



Quote:
Frank, I agree with thunder when he says that jesus came to fullfill the law.


Really.

What law?

Where is it written so I can read about it?

Or is this just one of those things you folks learn that sound nice but doesn't mean a thing?



Quote:
He didn't change anything inside the law itself. He only add laws.


What are they?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 05:44 pm
Yeah, what laws did he add? I'm interested in this one too!
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 05:47 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Jesus did not change the law, he fulfilled it. Nothing about the old law was changed. He just made it so that we were not accountable for the law.

*Hypothetical Parable*If a judge tells me that I am not going to be held accountable according to the parameters of the law, then the law does not change.


headofthe field wrote:
There is a lot of misunderstandings going on here.
Frank, I agree with thunder when he says that jesus came to fullfill the law. He didn't change anything inside the law itself. He only add laws.

You could almost say he amended "his constitution."

If you two would just stop and think for a few minutes, you might grasp just how silly it is to assume that the one word "fulfilled" in that passage wipes out all of the unpleasantness of the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament we have a God that tossed a tantrum that destroyed all the people and creatures of the earth, save what was on Noah's boat. We have a God that destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lott and his incestuous daughters. We have a God that tormented, sent plagues, pestilence, and drought upon the people of Egypt, then killed all their firstborn. We have a God that said this about his laws. Lev 26:14-46

Quote:
14 But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant:
.16 I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
.17 And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. -
.18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
.20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. -
.21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate. -
.23 And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me;
24 Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
.25 And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
.26 And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied. 26 - Bread again by weight See ez0416.
.27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
.29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
.31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
.33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
.36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
.39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them. -
.40 ¶ If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me;
41 And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:
.42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD. -
.46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.


You would let that one word lead you to believe that God suddenly had this massive personality switch and as soon he had his son brutally tortured and killed, that God is now a loving and all forgiving kind of God.

What do you suppose could have caused such a change in Bible God?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 06:33 pm
A miracle?
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Taliesin181
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2005 07:05 pm
Cicerone said:
Quote:
A miracle?


Heh. Nice one.

Frank: I've missed you and your awesomeness. I hope you keep posting.

As far as the topic goes, making the law so it doesn't apply is the same as changing it...or, even more extreme, destroying it. "Fulfilling" means "to bring to fullness"...not "to negate". I could understand if one was trying to use "fulfill" in the context of completing the reason for their creation, i.e. "fulfilling your destiny", thus making the "laws" useless, since they've served their purpose, but you guys are trying to twist "fulfill" into something that it doesn't mean. Please explain further.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 01:30 am
Good to see you too, Tal.

The kinds of things you, ci, Mesquite, and I are able to see so easily...obviously are invisible to people like Thunder and Head.

Personally, I could not care less if they are more comfortable being superstitious and fearful...and kowtowing to their god. But I...and I'm sure you and the others, see the horrible consequences for humanity in this indulgence.

Somewhere...somehow...this nonsense has got to stop. We cannot continue to allow this religion infection to continue to do to society and humanity what it has done over the ages. It has to be stopped.

Keep up the good fight.

I intend to do so...and for me...I will borrow from the message of Jesus and feel pity and sympathy for these poor deluded people.
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Algis Kemezys
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 08:49 am
Yes it's really surprising how things turned out along the way.But certainly we have attained the best of all possible thought regarding this considering how much we actually know about the puzzle.I think people are trapped within the uniqueness of the bible when the other truths from before lie with the Greek gods.Zeus being the main protagonist.
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Anonymous
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 09:47 am
au1929 wrote:
No. People became the sacrificial lambs.

People are not the sacrificial lambs. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He died for us, so that we could get to heavan and so that sacrifices would no longer be necessary.

Fufilling the law means that he completed the requirements of the Jewish law. He did not alter the Jewish law in any way. By fufulling the law, he gave us a way to forgiveness not through the law. He gave us a way to heavan. This is why we are no longer bound by the Jewish law.

Before the life of Jesus, people were following the laws and traditions for the sake of following them. They had forgotten the original meaning of these.

mesquite wrote:
If you two would just stop and think for a few minutes, you might grasp just how silly it is to assume that the one word "fulfilled" in that passage wipes out all of the unpleasantness of the Old Testament.

Nobody said that it wiped away history. It didn't wipe out the happenings of the Old Testament. What it did was liberate us from the Jewish laws.

mesquite wrote:
In the Old Testament we have a God that tossed a tantrum that destroyed all the people and creatures of the earth, save what was on Noah's boat. We have a God that destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lott and his incestuous daughters. We have a God that tormented, sent plagues, pestilence, and drought upon the people of Egypt, then killed all their firstborn. We have a God that said this about his laws. Lev 26:14-46

Notice how evil these people were. Where do you think the term "Sodomy Laws" came from? Sodom and Gomorrah were filled with sin. As for Egypt, God's people were being tortured, and they were the only ones following His will. He does not destroy people on a whim: He does it for a reason.

What are you complaining about? We are the evil ones, and He has given us the opportunity to repent. Remember the part about having free will? That means we have the choice. God could have made us mindless creatures, but he didn't. We have the capacity for good and evil, and thus have the responsibility to accept the consequences of our actions.
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thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 10:31 am
Quote:
Somewhere...somehow...this nonsense has got to stop. We cannot continue to allow this religion infection to continue to do to society and humanity what it has done over the ages. It has to be stopped.


......infection?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 10:48 am
thunder_runner32
Indeed an infection in dire need of an antibiotic. Sad
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 11:23 am
00 Agent Kid wrote:
au1929 wrote:
No. People became the sacrificial lambs.

People are not the sacrificial lambs. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He died for us, so that we could get to heavan and so that sacrifices would no longer be necessary.

Fufilling the law means that he completed the requirements of the Jewish law. He did not alter the Jewish law in any way. By fufulling the law, he gave us a way to forgiveness not through the law. He gave us a way to heavan. This is why we are no longer bound by the Jewish law.

Before the life of Jesus, people were following the laws and traditions for the sake of following them. They had forgotten the original meaning of these.

mesquite wrote:
If you two would just stop and think for a few minutes, you might grasp just how silly it is to assume that the one word "fulfilled" in that passage wipes out all of the unpleasantness of the Old Testament.

Nobody said that it wiped away history. It didn't wipe out the happenings of the Old Testament. What it did was liberate us from the Jewish laws.

mesquite wrote:
In the Old Testament we have a God that tossed a tantrum that destroyed all the people and creatures of the earth, save what was on Noah's boat. We have a God that destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lott and his incestuous daughters. We have a God that tormented, sent plagues, pestilence, and drought upon the people of Egypt, then killed all their firstborn. We have a God that said this about his laws. Lev 26:14-46

Notice how evil these people were. Where do you think the term "Sodomy Laws" came from? Sodom and Gomorrah were filled with sin. As for Egypt, God's people were being tortured, and they were the only ones following His will. He does not destroy people on a whim: He does it for a reason.

What are you complaining about? We are the evil ones, and He has given us the opportunity to repent. Remember the part about having free will? That means we have the choice. God could have made us mindless creatures, but he didn't. We have the capacity for good and evil, and thus have the responsibility to accept the consequences of our actions.


Thank you. Very Happy That's what I was trying to say.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 01:42 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Quote:
Somewhere...somehow...this nonsense has got to stop. We cannot continue to allow this religion infection to continue to do to society and humanity what it has done over the ages. It has to be stopped.


......infection?



Exactly.

Now you're getting it!
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 01:46 pm
thunder_runner32 wrote:
00 Agent Kid wrote:
au1929 wrote:
No. People became the sacrificial lambs.

People are not the sacrificial lambs. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. He died for us, so that we could get to heavan and so that sacrifices would no longer be necessary.

Fufilling the law means that he completed the requirements of the Jewish law. He did not alter the Jewish law in any way. By fufulling the law, he gave us a way to forgiveness not through the law. He gave us a way to heavan. This is why we are no longer bound by the Jewish law.

Before the life of Jesus, people were following the laws and traditions for the sake of following them. They had forgotten the original meaning of these.

mesquite wrote:
If you two would just stop and think for a few minutes, you might grasp just how silly it is to assume that the one word "fulfilled" in that passage wipes out all of the unpleasantness of the Old Testament.

Nobody said that it wiped away history. It didn't wipe out the happenings of the Old Testament. What it did was liberate us from the Jewish laws.

mesquite wrote:
In the Old Testament we have a God that tossed a tantrum that destroyed all the people and creatures of the earth, save what was on Noah's boat. We have a God that destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lott and his incestuous daughters. We have a God that tormented, sent plagues, pestilence, and drought upon the people of Egypt, then killed all their firstborn. We have a God that said this about his laws. Lev 26:14-46

Notice how evil these people were. Where do you think the term "Sodomy Laws" came from? Sodom and Gomorrah were filled with sin. As for Egypt, God's people were being tortured, and they were the only ones following His will. He does not destroy people on a whim: He does it for a reason.

What are you complaining about? We are the evil ones, and He has given us the opportunity to repent. Remember the part about having free will? That means we have the choice. God could have made us mindless creatures, but he didn't. We have the capacity for good and evil, and thus have the responsibility to accept the consequences of our actions.


Thank you. Very Happy That's what I was trying to say.


Okay...now we've got two people insisting that Jesus freed everyone from having to live according to "the law."

I have provided a passage which indicates that the furthest thing from Jesus' mind was to do that...and you two have produced not one goddam thing from the mouth of Jesus that substantiates what you are asserting.

Jesus says he was not here to change "the law"...but the fact is, he did change parts of it.

He NEVER said or even intimated that he was here to free anyone from the law...and yet you guys are insisting he did.

Sounds like a rather screwed up religion...or it sounds like you two have no other recourse than to mouth platitudes and then run away from dealing with any substantiation.

Terrible fix for you guys to be in.

You have my sympathy....and my pity.
0 Replies
 
Taliesin181
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 02:52 pm
00 Agent Kid: I'm still not getting the distinction you're trying to make between "fulfilling" and "eliminating". All I can see is a word used to define the same word. What does:
Quote:
Fufilling the law means that he completed the requirements of the Jewish law.

mean? What "requirements" were filled? Please explain. Thanks.
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 04:51 pm
00 Agent Kid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
If you two would just stop and think for a few minutes, you might grasp just how silly it is to assume that the one word "fulfilled" in that passage wipes out all of the unpleasantness of the Old Testament.

Nobody said that it wiped away history. It didn't wipe out the happenings of the Old Testament. What it did was liberate us from the Jewish laws.

Why? What would be the reason for changing from ultra vengeful to all forgiving. If you believe in the trinity, then all three are one so it is not as though there were a new regime with new rules.

00 Agent Kid wrote:
mesquite wrote:
In the Old Testament we have a God that tossed a tantrum that destroyed all the people and creatures of the earth, save what was on Noah's boat. We have a God that destroyed all the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah except for Lott and his incestuous daughters. We have a God that tormented, sent plagues, pestilence, and drought upon the people of Egypt, then killed all their firstborn. We have a God that said this about his laws. Lev 26:14-46

Notice how evil these people were. Where do you think the term "Sodomy Laws" came from? Sodom and Gomorrah were filled with sin. As for Egypt, God's people were being tortured, and they were the only ones following His will. He does not destroy people on a whim: He does it for a reason.

You equate sodomy with evil of a magnitude worth destroying men, women and children? Sick puppy. How about Lot's wife, turned to a pillar of salt for merely looking back? The first born children in Egypt that were killed only because of their birth order were evil? Once again I am trying to get you explain how you rationalize the change from ultra vengeful god that favored one small group to a god that was all forgiving merely for believing.

00 Agent Kid wrote:
What are you complaining about? We are the evil ones, and He has given us the opportunity to repent. Remember the part about having free will? That means we have the choice. God could have made us mindless creatures, but he didn't. We have the capacity for good and evil, and thus have the responsibility to accept the consequences of our actions.


The 2nd Commandment.
2. Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and keep My commandments.

Condemning the children before they were born, you call that consequences of actions?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:14 pm
Well Jesus came and went. And what changed?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:16 pm
What change? A whole bunch if you ask me! Half the world now believe in gods.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:23 pm
Mankind has always believed in one God or another. Be it the sun, moon, wind, idols, or etc. No nothing changed just a new religion was born on the root provided by the one from Whence it sprung.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:24 pm
You are 100 percent correct; man has always (as far as we know) always believed in some form of god(s).
0 Replies
 
mesquite
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2005 05:33 pm
Speak for yourself c.i. :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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