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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 04:25 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Taylor believes entirely in global warming,


How inconvenient that you include people on your list that believe entirely in global warming ican.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 27 Dec, 2009 04:27 pm
@High Seas,
Wow.. that's nice High Seas..

Perhaps you can provide us with the raw data for Galileo, Newton, Copernicus or are we to assume they acted criminally as well.
0 Replies
 
CoastalRat
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 10:55 am
@parados,
I don't think anyone here is arguing that the planet was not in a warming trend since about the mid 70's. The disagreement is with the argument that man is the cause of this warming trend and thus can do something to reverse the trend.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 11:34 am
@CoastalRat,
I agree with your basic point, and in addition I would point out that...
CoastalRat wrote:
I don't think anyone here is arguing that the planet was not in a warming trend since about the mid 70's.

Actually the planet has been on a warming trend for about 20k years. And it's on a regular cycle. And the large cycle has nothing to do with us. And no matter how much crap we pump into the atmosphere, it's gonna reach a peak and then crash back into an ice age. The debate over how much we are contributing is academic to the end result.

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/6058/carbondioxidekz6.jpg
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 12:04 pm
@CoastalRat,
If you think that, then you aren't paying much attention clown or you are attempting a joke.

The argument by okie and ican has repeatedly been that there isn't warming because..
1. the raw data used to show warming was destroyed.
2. pictures of the temperature collection sites prove they show a false warming
3. 600 scientists disagree with warming (ican only recently changed his statement when it was repeatedly shown to be false based on the statements he was quoting.)
4. The cold weather we have during winter proves we aren't warming
5. the charts show there is no warming in the last 5 years so we must be cooling.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 12:09 pm
@rosborne979,
That is a false argument rosborne...

Would you argue that brakes won't work to stop a car on a hill because gravity has always worked?
Would you argue that adding water to a glass won't cause it to overflow because there is already water in it?
Would you argue that we can't dam the Colorado because the grand canyon proves it can't be done?

Because warming occurs for other reasons in no way shows that man can't contribute.

1. You ignore science that shows that increasing the amount of CO2 causes gas mixtures to retain heat.
2. You ignore science that shows the output of the sun can't account for all the increase in temperature.

Until you can explain these you are doing nothing more than pointing at the grand canyon as evidence the hoover dam can't exist.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 02:53 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

Until you can explain these you are doing nothing more than pointing at the grand canyon as evidence the hoover dam can't exist.


Nonsense. Your own illogical leaps above are far greater than anything of which one could fault rosborne.

He accurately pointed out the earth's temperature/CO2 cycles and, as accurately, noted the CO2 increase in the last two centuries. He also noted that the underlying cycle should cause a rapid cooling period soon. These are fundamental truths that AGW cultists, such as yourself, persistently refuse to acknowledge.

Wheather the cyclic cooling will occur before any additional warming or whether the man-made CO2 increase will significantly disrupt the underlying cycle are issues about which he made no assertion. They are certainly valid and interesting questions.

The basic truth here is that we as yet have no rational basis for the massive disruption to the world economy demanded by the AGW cultists.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 03:06 pm
@rosborne979,
I agree 100%. We don't have enough data to determine that man-made co2 is changing our climate for the worse. I heard that cow's fart produces a great deal of co2, and we all know that human's continue to breed cows for one of our food source.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 03:37 pm
@parados,
paeados wrote:
Taylor believes entirely in global warming,
How inconvenient that you include people on your list that believe entirely in global warming ican.


Parados, inconvenient for whom? You, maybe?

Quote:
Taylor is reluctant to blame human activity-specifically, increased emissions of greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide-for [global warming's] apparent acceleration? Because the bigger picture tells him there are more powerful cycles at play.


What do you, parados, believe CAUSED global warming, and, in the last ten years, global cooling?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 03:44 pm
@parados,
paeados wrote:
The argument by okie and ican has repeatedly been that there isn't warming because.

Liar, Liar, tongue on fire!
We have agreed there HAS BEEN global warming since about 1910, and global cooling since about 2001.

We have argued that humans HAVE NOT BEEN the primary cause of global warming.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 10:29 pm
oh, good, we're making progress here. So you'd agree that the fifty or sixty "scientists" on Inhofe's silly list who maintain that there is no global warming are full of crap, ican? Let's delete them from your total right off the bat, right?

By the way, 2005 was the warmest year on record. 2007 was warmer, until la Nina cooled it a little bit--not very much --at the end of the year. Nina's done, temps rising again. Not much of a case for cooling during the last ten years.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 28 Dec, 2009 10:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:

Cow 'emissions' more damaging to planet than CO2 from cars

By Geoffrey Lean, Environment Editor

Sunday, 10 December 2006

Meet the world's top destroyer of the environment. It is not the car, or the plane,or even George Bush: it is the cow.

A United Nations report has identified the world's rapidly growing herds of cattle as the greatest threat to the climate, forests and wildlife. And they are blamed for a host of other environmental crimes, from acid rain to the introduction of alien species, from producing deserts to creating dead zones in the oceans, from poisoning rivers and drinking water to destroying coral reefs.

The 400-page report by the Food and Agricultural Organisation, entitled Livestock's Long Shadow, also surveys the damage done by sheep, chickens, pigs and goats. But in almost every case, the world's 1.5 billion cattle are most to blame. Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together.

Burning fuel to produce fertiliser to grow feed, to produce meat and to transport it - and clearing vegetation for grazing - produces 9 per cent of all emissions of carbon dioxide, the most common greenhouse gas. And their wind and manure emit more than one third of emissions of another, methane, which warms the world 20 times faster than carbon dioxide.

Livestock also produces more than 100 other polluting gases, including more than two-thirds of the world's emissions of ammonia, one of the main causes of acid rain.

Ranching, the report adds, is "the major driver of deforestation" worldwide, and overgrazing is turning a fifth of all pastures and ranges into desert.Cows also soak up vast amounts of water: it takes a staggering 990 litres of water to produce one litre of milk.

Wastes from feedlots and fertilisers used to grow their feed overnourish water, causing weeds to choke all other life. And the pesticides, antibiotics and hormones used to treat them get into drinking water and endanger human health.

The pollution washes down to the sea, killing coral reefs and creating "dead zones" devoid of life. One is up to 21,000sqkm, in the Gulf of Mexico, where much of the waste from US beef production is carried down the Mississippi.

The report concludes that, unless drastic changes are made, the massive damage done by livestock will more than double by 2050, as demand for meat increases.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:10 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
He accurately pointed out the earth's temperature/CO2 cycles and, as accurately, noted the CO2 increase in the last two centuries. He also noted that the underlying cycle should cause a rapid cooling period soon. These are fundamental truths that AGW cultists, such as yourself, persistently refuse to acknowledge.

Could you tell us what you mean by soon? Next year? The next 100 years? or MAYBE it might occur in the next million?

The argument that we have seen cycles in the past is not evidence that they will continue in the future or that there is a set time for cooling to occur. To make that claim without any evidence of why or how the cycle occurs is not logical at all.

Quote:
Wheather the cyclic cooling will occur before any additional warming or whether the man-made CO2 increase will significantly disrupt the underlying cycle are issues about which he made no assertion.
Did you read what he wrote before you claimed he made no assertion? Or do you just like to make stuff up and pretend it is real?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 08:13 am
@ican711nm,
LOL.. You have agreed ican? Then why have you made the arguments about it NOT occurring?

So.. humans are not responsible for the warming that is occurring while you claim it is cooling? You are too funny sometimes. You can deny but your statements over the last 3 years speak for themselves ican. You have denied the warming exists and you are doing it again in your statement about 'cooling.'
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:35 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
That is a false argument rosborne...

Because warming occurs for other reasons in no way shows that man can't contribute.

I never said that man wasn't contributing. I'm just pointing out that the planet goes through strong warming and cooling cycles that obviously have nothing to do with man's activity, and that we are at the top of a natural warming spike right now.

And while it's "possible" that mankind can add enough CO2 to the atmosphere to cause a state change in the natural cycle, it seems very unlikely. Given the regularity of the previous cycles amidst the normal natural fluctuations of solar and geologic activity, there is a strong implication of a natural breaking point in the planet's capacity to store heat, resulting in a rebound to it's more normal condition of glaciation.

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:55 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
I agree 100%. We don't have enough data to determine that man-made co2 is changing our climate for the worse. I heard that cow's fart produces a great deal of co2, and we all know that human's continue to breed cows for one of our food source.

There is no question that the climate has been warming for tens of thousands of years. And it's likely that human activity is contributing to the natural warming cycle. But if you throw a bucket of water into Niagara Falls, then you are "contributing" to the falls. And if ten thousand people throw buckets of water into the falls, then we are "contributing". But the relative contribution compared to the titanic natural forces involved is harder to measure.

Any discussion of global warming which focuses on whether or not warming is happening, is misplaced because warming is already known and expected. The only question of any relevance is whether the human contribution to the warming will have any impact on the natural cycle which is already firmly established, and what that impact will be. And given that nobody in the political or scientific arena is even asking the right questions at the moment, it's unlikely that we're going to get any meaningful answers any time soon.

I think mankind should minimize it's polluting activities just because it's a better way to live in your environment. Whether our descendants live on a hot planet or a cold one it's better not to have to walk around in (or breathe) your own waste products. But I don't think we should expect that anything we do is going to have much effect on planetary climate any time soon. The forces driving the underlying climate are obviously titanic or the spikes on the ice core graph wouldn't be so sharp and regular.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 10:59 am
@rosborne979,
I believe that the real confusion comes into the picture, because scientists are conflicted on global warming, and co2's contribution.

What we can probably assume is the fact that this planet will probably have another ice age, so this so-called warming issue is somewhat moot.

I also agree that man should make every attempt to minimize co2; it's better for our health.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 11:21 am
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:
I believe that the real confusion comes into the picture, because scientists are conflicted on global warming, and co2's contribution.

I think the confusion is happening because the issue has become political and economic rather than scientific.
cicerone imposter wrote:
What we can probably assume is the fact that this planet will probably have another ice age, so this so-called warming issue is somewhat moot.

Correct. We're in for another ice age, almost certainly. I don't think humanity, even if it tried as hard as possible, could alter the natural cycle. Once enough of the fresh water locked in the ice caps is released from melting, the saline content of the oceans will be altered, the thermohaline cycle will shut down and the deep ocean currents will stop. Then it won't matter how warm the atmosphere gets.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 11:30 am
Its just regional ...

The average temperature in 2009 was again higher (1°C) than the average of the of the last couple of decades (8.2° average of the past vs 9.2° this year).

However, the warming stagnates on a high level the last couple of years. (Warmest was 2000 and 2007 with 9.9° - lowest, since 1961, 1996 with 7.6°, the only time that temperature was below the average in the last 48 years.)
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Dec, 2009 03:18 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
oh, good, we're making progress here. So you'd agree that the fifty or sixty "scientists" on Inhofe's silly list who maintain that there is no global warming are full of crap, ican? Let's delete them from your total right off the bat, right?

By the way, 2005 was the warmest year on record. 2007 was warmer, until la Nina cooled it a little bit--not very much --at the end of the year. Nina's done, temps rising again. Not much of a case for cooling during the last ten years.

This post of yours, MontereyJack, is false!
None of the scientists on Imhofe's list "maintain that there is no global warming." They maintain that there is inadequate evidence to support the claim that human emissions of CO2 into the atmosphere have caused the global warming from 1910 to 1998.
Quote:

http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt
Average Annual Global Temperature Above 1901-2000 Average = TAA in °C:
1987 TAA = 0.179
1988 TAA = 0.180
1989 TAA = 0.103
1990 TAA = 0.254
1991 TAA = 0.212
1992 TAA = 0.061
1993 TAA = 0.105
1994 TAA = 0.171
1995 TAA = 0.275
1996 TAA = 0.137
1997 TAA = 0.351
1998 TAA = 0.546
1999 TAA = 0.296
2000 TAA = 0.270
2001 TAA = 0.409
2002 TAA = 0.464
2003 TAA = 0.473
2004 TAA = 0.447
2005 TAA = 0.482
2006 TAA = 0.422
2007 TAA = 0.405
2008 TAA = 0.324
2009 TAA = 0.404 (average for January - September)

 

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