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Global Warming...New Report...and it ain't happy news

 
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 15 Aug, 2009 04:41 pm
@parados,
Why do you not trust the competence of meteorologists, who forecast the weather sometimes incorrectly and sometime correctly, to sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly judge the evidence for human caused CO2 increases in the atmosphere?

You of course realize that medical doctors sometimes diagnose human illnesses incorrectly and sometime correctly.

You asked me to direct you to "the climate work of Meteorologists Andre and Sally Bernier of WJW-TV, in Cleveland." I could research that, but I don't want to. I would prefer that you direct me to the climate work of individuals you trust. Then I have a better chance of comprehending the basis of your opinions.

You already know much of the basis of my opinions that you reject. So let us both study the basis of your opinions, so that I can at least know what that basis is.

Here is another part of the basis of my opinion.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb

As of December 20, 2007, more than 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
307
Yury Izrael, the director of Global Climate and Ecology Institute, a member of the Russian Academy of Sciences and UN IPCC Vice President, rejected man-made global warming fears. "There is no proven link between human activity and global warming," Izrael, who also served as former first vice-president of the World Meteorological Organization, wrote on June 23, 2005 in RIA Novosti. "Global temperatures increased throughout the 1940s, declined in the 1970s and subsequently began to rise again. Present-day global warming resembles the 1940s, when ships could easily navigate Arctic passages. However, man's impact was much smaller at that time. A Russian expedition that recently returned from the central Antarctic says that temperatures are now starting to decrease. These sensational findings are one of Mother Nature's surprises," Izrael wrote. "Atmospheric carbon dioxide was 280 PPM (parts per million air molecules) in 1880, and now stands at 378 PPM. It has increased by 31% since the pre-industrial era. This is quite a lot, but temperatures have increased by only 0.6 degrees. Paradoxically, temperatures tended to rise by one to 12 degrees at peak intervals, with carbon-dioxide fluctuations totaling not more than 300 PPM. This contradiction is rather baffling. Therefore I believe that the link between man's activities and rising temperatures has not been proved completely. Natural factors and the impact of man seem to be interlinked," he added. "The European Union has established by fiat that a two-degree rise in global temperatures would be quite dangerous. However, this data is not scientifically sound. In ancient times the Earth had periods when maximum CO2 concentrations were 6,000 PPM (in Carboniferous period). But life still goes on," he concluded. (LINK)

Adanac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:48 am
I wonder how these fellows got it so wrong ???

parados ?

Quote:
In January 1970, Life reported, "Scientists have solid experimental and theoretical evidence to support...the following predictions: In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution...by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half...."
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 02:44 am
@Adanac,
Any name and/or qualification of those "scientists"? I mean, 'Life' certainly is a well-known scientific, peer-reviewed paper ...


Besides that: did you ever happen to be in some of the world's industrial areas in those days? And today in the same areas? Like in Greater Manchester, the Ruhr district, North France ... ... ...
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 06:19 am
@Adanac,
Quote:
A simple question does not get asked: What part of the warming and cooling period since 1850 is natural?

Not only has it been asked. It has been asked repeatedly by scientists and much science has been published on that issue.
We know how much of the warming is caused by the sun because we have much more accurate readings of the sun's output. z

Asking questions that have already been answered doesn't disprove man made warming. It only shows you are ignorant of the science.

I suggest you read the IPCC report before you accuse science of not asking questions.

Quote:
The first two warmings could not be related to human additions of CO2 from industry, hence why wouldn't the 1976-1998 warming also be due to natural process?
And who told you this? The warming since 1860 has been driven to some extent by human activity. Science has worked out how much. Now you come along and claim it isn't related to humans. Where is your science?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 06:25 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
Why do you not trust the competence of meteorologists, who forecast the weather sometimes incorrectly and sometime correctly, to sometimes correctly and sometimes incorrectly judge the evidence for human caused CO2 increases in the atmosphere?

For the same reason I don't trust their competence as medical Drs. Sure, they might have some information, but they aren't experts outside their field.

Quote:
You of course realize that medical doctors sometimes diagnose human illnesses incorrectly and sometime correctly.
Yes they do which is why it is often a good idea to get a second opinion or a third. In the case of global warming we have much more than second and third opinions. We have every scientist that has actually EXAMINED the patient and done tests saying the same thing. You want to rely on people that haven't physically done any examinations and aren't even experts in the field. You are like someone that is told by every Dr that he has cancer but prefers to believe his Yoga instructor and supermarket check out girl when they disagree with the Drs.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 06:37 am
@Adanac,
You might want to check your history Adanac
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_(1970)
Quote:
The Clean Air Act Extension of 1970 (84 Stat. 1676, Public Law 91-604) is a United States federal law that requires the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to develop and enforce regulations to protect the general public from exposure to airborne contaminants that are known to be hazardous to human health. This law is an amendment to the Clean Air Act (CAA) originally passed in 1963. It is sometimes called the Muskie Act because of the central role Maine Senator Edmund Muskie played in drafting the content of the bill. [1]

It seems in the US, laws were passed to prevent this from happening.

But, it seems that in some cities around the world, particulate masks are worn because of the pollution.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/11/2008/07/340x_pollution_mask.jpg
http://psoglin.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c52aa53ef00e553d230d58833-800wi
http://totobobo.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/motorcycle-group.jpg

Pollution masks for cyclists
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 07:06 am
Quote:
"Please treat this information as sensitive ... we don't want critics to know our game plan."


Oil industry memo lays out tea-bag style propaganda campaign...

Quote:
A leaked memo sent by an oil industry group reveals a plan to create astroturf rallies at which industry employees posing as "citizens" will urge Congress to oppose climate change legislation.

The memo -- sent by the American Petroleum Institute and obtained by Greenpeace, which sent it to reporters -- urges oil companies to recruit their employees for events that will "put a human face on the impacts of unsound energy policy," and will urge senators to "avoid the mistakes embodied in the House climate bill."
API tells TPMmuckraker that the campaign is being funded by a coalition of corporate and conservative groups that includes the anti-health-care-reform group 60 Plus, FreedomWorks, and Grover Norquist's Americans For Tax Reform.

The memo, signed by API president Jack Gerard, asks recipients to give API "the name of one central coordinator for your company's involvement in the rallies."

And it warns: "Please treat this information as sensitive ... we don't want critics to know our game plan."

Aside from the astroturf nature of the planned events, which appear aimed at passing off industry employees as independent citizens, the memo also raises questions about the positions of several major oil companies on the issue of climate change. BP and Shell both are members of API, and also of the U.S. Climate Action Partnership, a coalition of groups that supports Waxman-Markey, the very climate change legislation the memo criticizes.

API has spent over $3 million lobbying against that bill this year.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/sensitive_oil_industry_memo_lays_out_plan_for_astr.php?ref=fpblt

Note the last paragraph. As Wendell Potter, who had been PR chief with Cigna (medical insurance) has detailed, the insurance industry is now playing a game with two faces; a for-public-consumption "we are working with the Obama administration to reform med insurance" but alongside that PR face there is an enormous covert project to obstruct and kill changes that will hurt their bottom line (responsibility to shareholders, after all). See here... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QwX_soZ1GI
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 08:42 am
@blatham,
What is your policy Bernie on climate change legislation?

We already have a good idea what that of API is.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 09:10 am
@spendius,
In educated specifics, I don't have one because I'm not well enough educated in the options nor in their consequences. Those are areas I will leave for others. My interest and expertise is in identification of propaganda instances and methodologies.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 10:38 am
@blatham,
I hardly think any A2Kers need guidance on the propaganda and methodologies of shareholders. "After all."

In Minderbinderian terms you all have a share don't you?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 10:42 am
@parados,
Those masks you pictured do not protect anyone against a decrease in the density of oxygen in the atmosphere due to the increase in CO2 in the atmosphere. Those masks are warn to protect against pollutants. CO2 is not a pollutant. We all agree that we should at least limit if not eliminate toxic and noxious pollutants. CO2 is neither.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 10:45 am
@blatham,
Quote:
A leaked memo sent by an oil industry group reveals a plan to create astroturf rallies at which industry employees posing as "citizens" will urge Congress to oppose climate change legislation.

Gee, I thought almost all domestic oil industry employees were 'citizens.'
0 Replies
 
Adanac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 12:54 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Quote:

The Clean Air Act Extension of 1970 (84 Stat. 1676, Public Law 91-604) is a United States federal law that requires the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to develop and enforce regulations to protect the general public from exposure to airborne contaminants that are known to be hazardous to human health. This law is an amendment to the Clean Air Act (CAA) originally passed in 1963. It is sometimes called the Muskie Act because of the central role Maine Senator Edmund Muskie played in drafting the content of the bill. [1]


It seems in the US, laws were passed to prevent this from happening.


My comments were about man made CO2 and global warming, not about local air pollution in cities, but it is typical of the doomsters when their predictions have been shown to be wrong, they then claim their warnings have been headed.


Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:01 pm
@Adanac,
Adanac wrote:

My comments were about man made CO2 and global warming, not about local air pollution in cities, but it is typical of the doomsters when their predictions have been shown to be wrong, they then claim their warnings have been headed.


Well, sorry, how could someone miss that from your post?

About CO2 and global warming Adanac wrote:

I wonder how these fellows got it so wrong ???

parados ?

Quote:
In January 1970, Life reported, "Scientists have solid experimental and theoretical evidence to support...the following predictions: In a decade, urban dwellers will have to wear gas masks to survive air pollution...by 1985 air pollution will have reduced the amount of sunlight reaching earth by one half...."

0 Replies
 
Adanac
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 01:30 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter, no they didn't publish names as far as I know, but my point is they were taken to be eminent scientists of the day as are the current ones forecasting doom and gloom. They were not simply wrong, but spectacularly wrong.
What I am saying is that man made CO2 is not the big bad boogie everyone makes it out to be. CO2 never drove climate change in the past, so why now ?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 02:02 pm
@Adanac,
Adanac wrote:

Walter, no they didn't publish names as far as I know, but my point is they were taken to be eminent scientists of the day as are the current ones forecasting doom and gloom. They were not simply wrong, but spectacularly wrong.


Well, you were quoting from that Life report. I mean, you really should know what it was about. (Human made CO2 and global warming, you said, I know.) What issue was it, what page?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 03:03 pm
@Adanac,
Quote:
Walter, no they didn't publish names as far as I know, but my point is they were taken to be eminent scientists of the day as are the current ones forecasting doom and gloom. They were not simply wrong, but spectacularly wrong.

1. You have given no evidence that this was actual science
2. You have ignored evidence of masks being worn in cities because of pollution.
3. You have ignored the fact that the Clean Air Act reduced pollutants drastically from the 1970s by setting standards that cities had to meet in the US. Clean air standards required the reduction of pollutants from automobiles. Since 1970, pollutants from automobile emissions have been more than cut in half despite there being more vehicles on the road
In the US, vehicle miles traveled has almost tripled while vehicle emissions are only 53% of what they were in 1970s.
http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/conference/ei16/session7/warren.pdf


If we were to reduce the CO2 emissions to 53% of what they are today in 20 years, the predictions are that the warming would slow drastically, if not be eliminated. Science has said we need to reduce less than that to make a difference.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 03:18 pm
http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=f80a6386-802a-23ad-40c8-3c63dc2d02cb
As of December 20, 2007, more than 400 prominent scientists from more than two dozen countries have voiced significant objections to major aspects of the alleged UN IPCC "consensus" on man-made global warming.

Quote:

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.SenateReport#report
308
Chemist Dr. Joel M. Kauffman, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry at the University of the Sciences in Philadelphia, rejected the notion that "the vast majority" of scientists believe in man-made global warming. "The truth about this is the opposite; most scientists do not," Kauffman wrote on September 7, 2007. "CO2 can hardly have been the cause of warming because its level in air has been higher than it is now at least 3 times between 1812 and 1962 as shown by 90,000 direct chemical measurements (Beck, E.-G., 180 Years of Atmospheric CO2 Gas Analysis by Chemical Methods, Energy & Environment, 2007, 18(2), 259-282). Further, there is no recent correlation between CO2 levels and atmospheric temps as you may see easily from a NOAA graph," he wrote. "With an allowance for such urban heat island effects, the global temperature rise from 1905-1940 was similar to the one from 1970-2003 (www.giss.nasa.gov). Dr. Hansen's flawed USA ground station temps from 2000-2006 needed a Y2K correction provided by the Canadian Steve McIntyre showing that 1934 was the warmest year of the last 100, not 1998 or 2006," he concluded. (LINK)

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 03:49 pm
@ican711nm,
We have reduced pollutant emissions without reducing CO2 emissions. How do I know? It's obvious! During the period pollutant emissions were being drastically reduced in the USA, CO2 emissions continued to increase monotonically. That implies that pollutant emissions have little if anything to do with CO2 emissions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
CO2 Density Trend 1958-2008
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 Aug, 2009 03:50 pm
/re ican's 308, another case of the blind leading the blind. Ernst-George Becker, a previous listing in Murano's bogus list, is the equivalent of a German high school biology teacher--he is not a "noted researcher" as the list characterized him. He only did a literature search on 19th century CO2 measurements, which has been pretty thoroughly debunked by scientists and historians of science, because 1] accurate measurements of CO2 were far beyond the capacity of their instruments or their methods, and 2] most of the measurements were done in urban, that is to say industrialized environments, where it is well-known among researchers that largely because of the urban use of fossil fuels, you get hot spots well above the global average of CO2, which is why 3] CO2 measureemnts are done today in Hawaii, since atmospheric gases mix readily with each other and there you can get a global average since you're well away from higher local concentrations.

Strike one.

Steve McIntyre's data are for the US , not the globe. NASA stands. McIntyre sits.

Strike two.

That's all #308 cited. He's out.
 

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