@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack, your repeated polemics about me and my posts are not scientific data/evidence or even valid logic that support
your opinions. These graphs I have posted and these tables of data I have posted are scientific data/evidence that support
my opinions, whether or not you are competent/willing to understand them:
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2008
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
CAD Trend 1958-2008
http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
Solar Irradiance 1611 t0 2001
http://biocab.org/Amplitude_SI_Lean_s_Database.jpg
Anomalies of Solar Irradiance 1610 t0 2006, Leans Database
http://biocab.org/Annual_Correlation_SI-dT.jpg
Correlation SI & AAGT
ftp://ftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccg/co2/trends/co2_mm_mlo.txt
CO2 Tabulated Trend
http://biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_is_Actually_Increasing.html
SI Tabulated Trend
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt
AoAAGT Tabulated Trend
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2007/ann/global.html
Graphic and Tabulation Analysis
CAGT = CENTURY AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE,1901-2000, in °K = 287.06°K
AAGT= ANNUAL AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE in °K
AoAAGT = ANOMALIES of AAGT = AAGT - CAGT in °K
AAGT = CAGT + AoAAGT
CAD = CO2 ATMOSPHERIC DENSITY in PPM
SI = SOLAR IRRADIANCE in W/M^2
NOTE: SI for 2008 was projected from SI in 2005, and this graph:
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Solar_Cycle_Variations_png
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
And why is it important for you to say things like that Walter when you know they aren't true?
You usually post "what you found in your email". And your quotes are indeed not very "widespread". That's at least my impression and certainly I can be wrong and even more certainly you've a totally different opinion.
ican, The data are the data. It's your analyses that are wacked, for the reasons that I have stated. Since the people that actually compiled the data come up with conclusions exactly the opposite from yours, with analyses that are mathematically defensible, I repeat, your conclusions, for the reasons I have stated, are junk science.
@Walter Hinteler,
No. Occasionally I do post an interesting email or reference email as where I got certain information. It is not something I "usually do", however, and, compared to most of the information that I post, it is quite infrequent. I don't know why that would be a problem for you that I have a lot of friends that send me interesting stuff that they find or receive. I very occasionally post a tiny fraction of that which I do receive if I think it is especially interesting or pertinent to a particular topic being discussed. You think I am wrong to do that? Why?
I have no idea what you mean by 'wide spread'. Do you see your own opinions or convictions as being far more diverse than mine? Do you post a wide diversity of opinion much more than I do? Do you mostly post things that disagree with your own beliefs or convictions or do you post what supports your beliefs or convictions? Why would you think it appropriate to hold me to a higher standard than you hold yourself?
I have no idea what I have done to offend you or anybody else. It is your prerogative to join with the numbnuts in making stupid ad hominem and insulting remarks. It is my prerogative to not appreciate that and/or ignore those who think it is intelligent or fun to do that.
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack, what is your evidence that my "analyses are wacked"? More polemics?
MontereyJack, what is your evidence that "the people that actually compiled the data come up with conclusions exactly the opposite from [mine] with analyses that are mathematically defensible"? More polemics?
MontereyJack, what is your evidence that "the reasons [you] have stated are not junk science? More polemics?
MontereyJack, what is your evidence that my "conclusions, for the reasons [you] have stated, are junk science"? More polemics?
Polemics are not evidence! Polemics are just polemics!
Quote:
http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/unabridged?va=polemic&x=26&y=9
Main Entry: 1po·lem·ic Pronunciation Guide
Pronunciation: plemik, p-, -mk
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): -s
Etymology: French polémique, from Middle French polemique, from polemique, adjective
1 a : a controversial discussion or argument : an aggressive attack on or the refutation of the opinions or principles of another <the premises of our polemic against totalitarianism -- J.M.Cameron> <dismiss these books as cold-war polemics -- Karl Meyer> <repeating old and weary polemics -- Irving Howe> b : the art or practice of disputation or controversy <neither descended to crude polemic -- Richard Hoggart> <his active polemic against ... liberals -- A.C.McGiffert> <the style too frequently descends to the level of polemics -- M.S.Handler> -- usually used in plural but usually sing. in constr. <the book ... is a little masterpiece of polemics -- Martin Gardner>
2 : one that controverts an opinion, doctrine, or system : an aggressive controversialist : DISPUTANT <the sarcasms and invectives of the young polemic -- T.B.Macaulay>
3 polemics plural but singular in construction : the branch of Christian theology devoted to the refutation of errors -- compare APOLOGETICS, IRENICS
I haver given you the reasons repeatedly, ican, and you have never come up with a convincing rebuttal. That's not polemics.
Go the the UEA website, the people who deal with the HadCrut data. Look at their FAQs. Anthropogenic global warming.
Go to the NASA and NOAA websites (you're wrong incidentally about NASA not having a hand in climate science), the people who produce the GissTEMP data. Look at their analyses and their FAQs. Anthropogenic global warming.
Look at the temperature data graphs you repost endlessly (and again graphs that the pople who compiled them say evincesglobal warming). Notice where the spikes and the dips are in the period since the 70s. Try to correlate them with the (nominal) 11 year solar cycle. They don't correlate. Try to correlate them with the elNino changes (which are aperiodic). They DO correlate. Notice that those peaks and dips last a year or two. Rapid changes and then regression to the meanlike those in the temperature record are WEATHER effects not climate. NASA and NOAA and everyone else in the climate community agree the two major effects on interannual variability in the temp record are CO2 and the elNino ENSO cycle. Yet you pick for your starting and endpoints 1998 and 2008, two years affected by opposite extremes of that cycle, and attempt to draw a conclusion ab out SI and CO2 from that. The heat for ENSO obiously comes from the sun, however there's NO evidence that the roughly 1/10 of 1% change in SI over the 11 year cycle, or the questionable change in overall TSI of roughly 1/10 of that minuscule amount over the last thirty years causes any change in either the intensity or frequency of the ENSO cycle.
Solar irradiance of course makes life on earth possible, but if it were just for solar irradiance, there would still be minimal life on earth, if any, since the earth would be a mostly frozen snowball. It is the greenhouse effect, and greenhouse gases that cause the earth to warm that extra 30 degrees or so that makes life as we know it possible. It's the greenhouse effect that makes human life viable. here, and that's why changes in greenhouse gases are important. Keep in mind that, if SI in fact increases while greenhouse gases are increasing, that will simply heat the earth MORE than would be the result if greenhouse gases weren't increasing, which means we cook faster,
All right, I got bogged down there. Your analysis is also invalid because it works only for the arbitrary endpoints you picked. As I have pointed out before, it does not work for the period just one year off, which includes more than 90% of the same data, 1997-2007. If an analysis only works for one carefully selected time period, in particular a time period with anomalous endpoints, and is in fact contradicted by other time periods, then it is worthless.
You confuse the cyclic 11 year cycle with overall changes in SI when you attempt to draw conclusions about the effect of SI on temp. In particular if you draw a conclusion from the decline in SI from 2000 to 2008 (which is part of the cyclical change), then logically you have to look at what effect the incrfease in SI from 1996 to 2000 had on temp. And of course you have to look at the similar increases and declines in SI ovber previous cycles. One would logically, if you are correct, expect to see similar declines (and increases) in temp that correlate with those parts of previous cycles. They just aren't there. The proposed correlation is invalid.
Those are some of the points, ican. Those aren't polemics. Those are reasons why your analyses are,metaphorically in keeping with the topic, hot air. There are more, but real life calls.
@MontereyJack,
Monterey Jack wrote:I haver given you the reasons repeatedly, ican, and you have never come up with a convincing rebuttal. That's not polemics.
You have not repeatedly given me specific reasons that you back up with specific quotes of actual scientific data and/or logic. Instead you merely give me more polemics as the reasons for your previous polemics.
You keep posting what you think are the reasons "why [my] analyses are,metaphorically in keeping with the topic, hot air." You, MontereyJack, have yet to support your reasons with actual scientific data and/or logic. You ignore the opinions of scientists worldwide who question the validity of what about two-dozen IPCC scientists have alleged is true. Human caused global warming is is at best an uncertain and inadequately supported theory, and at worst a fraudulent theory.
@Foxfyre,
You were pretty clear in calling Walter a numbnut when you said he was one of those that followed you around. You can deny it like you do everything else. I only posted your words and other people can make their decisions about your words.
Quote:MJ seemed to scorn the fact that I hadn't read the release targeted at what he refers to as "policy makers" that he says is in a form easier to digest for the non-technies. I wonder if anybody here has seen such a document? I have asked MJ to post it, but so far he has ignored the request.
It has been discussed quite a bit on this thread Fox. I am sure links to it have been posted here before. Ican has posted about it. Much of what the "skeptics" have complained about has been in the report for policy makers since that report talks about actions that policy makers should take. Do you not read what the skeptics write?
As for the report -
One need only go to the IPCC website to find a link to it
http://www.ipcc.ch/
If that is too hard for you then here is the direct link
http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/assessment-report/ar4/syr/ar4_syr_spm.pdf
@parados,
Suddenly her mouse doesn't work when she tries to click on it...
T
K
O
@ican711nm,
Polemics?
You are too funny ican..
I posted this
http://able2know.org/topic/44061-662#post-3640303
10 time periods where TSI decreased but temperature increased. The exact opposite you claim your cherry picked dates show. Yet you now accuse us of polemics? You never discussed why those 10 time periods show the opposite of your conclusions using only 4 time periods. No matter how many time periods you use ican, I can find as many if not more that show the opposite of what you concluded.
That means any or all of the following:
1. You are cherry picking data
2. You are ignoring data that doesn't agree with you
3. Your conclusions are false based on the data as a whole
4. You don't have a clue what you are talking about..
Now.. Tell us again who is using polemics?
Explain why TSI can decrease but temperature can increase if TSI is the major reason for temperature change.
@Diest TKO,
Maybe she doesn't realize that the Summary for Policymakers is called
Quote: * Summary for Policymakers
Fox, I gave you the website. So did parados. It is, for the thiird time
www.ipcc.ch. The Summary for Policymakers, which is called Summary for Policymakers (I thought you might have guessed that from the capital letters. Apparently not), is there. It's twenty-two pages long. You were expecting a three paragraph newspaper article? The Technical Summary is over 600 pages. It has quite a bit of evidence and research,, 600plus pages in fact, that demonstrates exactly why anthropogenic global warmning is real.I am NOT going to post them here. Everyone would kill me if I posted twenty two pages of something and deservedly so, let alone 600 pages. Hmm, maybe that's not such a bad idea at that. Everytime ican posts another one of Senator Inhofe's, the bought and paid for wholly owned subsidiary of the oil industry's ,infamous 400, maybe I'll post another three or four pagesof the Technical Summary.
ican, this is actually YOUR cite. Do you really read them before you post them?
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2007/ann/global.html
And then you might read the comparable NOAA summary for 2008--just replace the 2007 in the url with 2008.
They are quite nice summaries of exactly what I've said about elNinoENSO and global temperature, and why 2007 and 2008 were somewhat cooler, and they also corroborate that, while SI was going down from 2001-2008 (because it was the down part of the nominally 11 year solar cycle), temperature was going up (until an el Nino brought it TEMPORARILY down a bit, but not too far). They corroborate that you ignore relevant variables. And since SI and temps are going in opposite directions it's pretty much an indication that your correlation is only in your own mind, not in the data. It's YOUR cite, ican.
You might also refresh yourself on the difference between changes in SI due to the solar cycle, which is as the name implies, CYCLIC not CUMULATIVE, and possible changes in total solar irradiance over the long term. Remember those interminable discussions about PMOD and ACRIM? You're confusing short term cyclic change with long term toatal output changd.
And I did post this before, but I will do it again, as an example of why your analysis produces nonsense:.
You claim that the period 1998-2008 shows a decrease in SI and a decrease in ave. global temp., therefore SI change is the major cause of temp. change.
Now if this were true, it should be generalizable. That is, it should be reproducible over other time periods.
BUT, using ICAN'S DATA and ICAN'S ANALYSIS, over the time period 1997-2007, which contains over 90% of the same data that ican used, we find:
(in the order year/SI/temp anomaly above century mean)
1997 1365.76 .351
2007 1365.66 .405
Over the 11 year time period--the interval ican used, and with endpoints just one year different on either end, we get exactly the opposite result--SI went DOWN, temp went UP, so SI over that period, 91% the same as ican, is clearly responsible for NONE of the temperature change. Can you tell me why YOUR method of analysis produces a diametrically opposite result from what you claim you were proving, ican?
@parados,
It is a fact that during the specific 90 year period, 1908 to 1998, CAD increased, SI increased, AoAAGT increased, and AAGT increased. It is also a fact that during the specific 11 year period, 1998 to 2008, CAD increased, SI decreased, AoAAGT decreased, and AAGT decreased. Because of these acts, SI increases and decreases are likely to be the major causes of AoAAGT and AAGT increases and decreases, and CAD increases are likely to be minor, if not negligible, causes of increases of AoAAGT and AAGT.
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/nhshgl.gif
Average Annual Global Temperature 1850-2008
http://www.biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_English.jpg
Solar Irradiance 1611 t0 2001
http://biocab.org/Amplitude_SI_Lean_s_Database.jpg
Anomalies of Solar Irradiance 1610 t0 2006, Leans Database
http://biocab.org/Annual_Correlation_SI-dT.jpg
Correlation SI & AAGT
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Mauna_Loa_Carbon_Dioxide.png
CAD Trend 1958-2008
ftp://ftp.cmdl.noaa.gov/ccg/co2/trends/co2_mm_mlo.txt
CAD Tabulated Trend
http://biocab.org/Solar_Irradiance_is_Actually_Increasing.html
SI Tabulated Trend
http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/cru/data/temperature/hadcrut3gl.txt
AoAAGT Tabulated Trend
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/research/2007/ann/global.html
Graphic and Tabulation Analysis
CAGT = CENTURY AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE,1901-2000, in °K = 287.06°K
AAGT= ANNUAL AVERAGE GLOBALTEMPERATURE in °K
AoAAGT = ANOMALIES of AAGT = AAGT - CAGT in °K
AAGT = CAGT + AoAAGT
CAD = CO2 ATMOSPHERIC DENSITY in PPM
SI = SOLAR IRRADIANCE in W/M^2
NOTE: SI for 2008 was projected from SI in 2005, and this graph:
http://www.globalwarmingart.com/wiki/Image:Solar_Cycle_Variations_png
Okay, I have now read through the IPCC's "Summary for Policymakers" which, I presume is more than the pro-AGW advocates here have done since nobody seemed to be able to post a link to it when requested to do so. Did I understand all of it? No I didn't. I'm going make an educated guess than none of the other members fully understands all of it either, but it is my informed opinion that some would understand more of it than others would and much more than I did.
I wonder, however, if anybody has read the
Independent Summary for Policymakers, IPPC Fourth Assessment Report? In the process of looking for the other summary I also found this one.
It is noted that this report does mention that much of the scientific data included in the IPCC summary for policymakers is good science, and further comments that some who worked on this report also worked on that one.
Here's the link:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/ISPM.pdf
While some of the IPCC report is praised in the ISPM, they did identify certain problems:
Quote:The IPCC involves numerous experts in the preparation of its reports. However, chapter authors are frequently asked to summarize current controversies and disputes in which they themselves are professionally involved, which invites bias. Related to this is the problem that chapter authors may tend to favor their own published work by presenting it in a
prominent or flattering light. Nonetheless the resulting reports tend to be reasonably comprehensive and informative.
Some research that contradicts the hypothesis of greenhouse gas-induced warming is under-represented, and some controversies are treated in a
one-sided way, but the reports still merit close attention.
A more compelling problem is that the Summary for Policymakers, attached to the IPCC Report, is produced, not by the scientific writers and reviewers, but by a process of negotiation among unnamed bureaucratic delegates from sponsoring governments. Their selection of material need not and may not reflect the priorities and intentions of the scientific community itself. Consequently it is useful to have independent experts read the
underlying report and produce a summary of the most pertinent elements of the report.
Finally, while the IPCC enlists many expert reviewers, no indication is given as to whether they disagreed with some or all of the material they reviewed. In previous IPCC reports many expert reviewers have lodged serious objections only to find that, while their objections are ignored, they are acknowledged in the final document, giving the impression that they endorsed the views expressed therein.
The ISPM conclusion:
Quote:The following concluding statement is not in the Fourth Assessment Report, but was agreed upon by the ISPM writers based on their review of the current evidence.
The Earth's climate is an extremely complex system and we must not understate the difficulties involved in analyzing it. Despite the many data limitations and uncertainties, knowledge of the climate system continues to advance based on improved and expanding data sets and improved understanding of meteorological and oceanographic mechanisms.
The climate in most places has undergone minor changes over the past 200 years, and the land-based surface temperature record of the past 100 years exhibits warming trends in many places. Measurement problems, including uneven sampling, missing data and local land-use changes, make interpretation of these trends difficult. Other, more stable data sets,
such as satellite, radiosonde and ocean temperatures yield smaller warming trends. The actual climate change in many locations has been relatively small and within the range of known natural variability. There is no compelling evidence that dangerous or unprecedented changes are underway.
The available data over the past century can be interpreted within the framework of a variety of hypotheses as to cause and mechanisms for the measured changes. The hypothesis that greenhouse gas emissions have produced or are capable of producing a significant warming of the Earth's climate since the start of the industrial era is credible, and merits continued attention. However, the hypothesis cannot be proven by formal theoretical
arguments, and the available data allow the hypothesis to be credibly disputed.
Arguments for the hypothesis rely on computer simulations, which can never be decisive as supporting evidence. The computer models in use are not, by necessity, direct calculations of all basic physics but rely upon empirical approximations for many of the smaller scale processes of the oceans and atmosphere. They are tuned to produce a credible simulation of current global climate statistics, but this does not guarantee reliability in future climate regimes. And there are enough degrees of freedom in tunable models that simulations cannot serve as supporting evidence for any one tuning scheme, such as that associated with a strong effect from greenhouse gases.
There is no evidence provided by the IPCC in its Fourth Assessment Report that the uncertainty can be formally resolved from first principles, statistical hypothesis testing or modeling exercises. Consequently, there will remain an unavoidable element of uncertainty as to the extent that humans are contributing to future climate change, and indeed whether or not such change is a good or bad thing.
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~rmckitri/research/ISPM.pdf